Big Crash
#16
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On the latter, I've seen some people here disagree, but my opinion and experience indicates that if you build or install a half cage, the car remains streetable (especially with proper seat height rearward) and protects more than stock from lateral unibody intrusion or compression. As well as vertical compression...
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carbondan (10-13-2020)
#17
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On the former, yes. Anything you can do to control and reduce acceleration and deceleration of your head is good,
On the latter, I've seen some people here disagree, but my opinion and experience indicates that if you build or install a half cage, the car remains streetable (especially with proper seat height rearward) and protects more than stock from lateral unibody intrusion or compression. As well as vertical compression...
On the latter, I've seen some people here disagree, but my opinion and experience indicates that if you build or install a half cage, the car remains streetable (especially with proper seat height rearward) and protects more than stock from lateral unibody intrusion or compression. As well as vertical compression...
#18
If you go with a half cage you might want to consider a Sparco Ergo as has removable head protection so you can drive it on the street. Better visibility than a full containment seat on the street. Not sure if it is certified for racing though.
#19
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I'll echo everyone's comments here. Thank goodness you're ok. But you're not fully ok, so make sure you get cleared by a good doctor before hitting the track again. And yes, definitely new helmet and re-cert the Hans.
My 2 cents on the GT4. Personally I'd keep it as is and invest in a dedicated track car. Something less expensive like a spec boxster, etc., etc. The GT4 is beautiful and incredibly capable, but given the speeds I'm assuming you're hitting, I wouldn't want anything but a fully caged car. It's not likely, but certainly possible that you could ball up that GT4 at some point and for me personally, I'd rather do that in a 'throw away' race car rather than a collectible. But again, that's just my opinion.
Be safe and get back out there (when doc says it's ok)!
My 2 cents on the GT4. Personally I'd keep it as is and invest in a dedicated track car. Something less expensive like a spec boxster, etc., etc. The GT4 is beautiful and incredibly capable, but given the speeds I'm assuming you're hitting, I wouldn't want anything but a fully caged car. It's not likely, but certainly possible that you could ball up that GT4 at some point and for me personally, I'd rather do that in a 'throw away' race car rather than a collectible. But again, that's just my opinion.
Be safe and get back out there (when doc says it's ok)!
#20
I had a 2001 BMW M3 (from your photos, it appears as though you were in an E46 as well). I tracked the car quite a bit, but only went as far as a big brake kit and R compound tires for mods. After a few years of ownership and daily driving, I noted that the rear end seemed to dart at times. I took it to numerous local BMW dealers and several independent shops for diagnosis. None of them claimed they could detect anything wrong. I finally took it to a BMW race shop, TC Design. The shop owner confirmed my complaint and described how the rear sub-frame on this and the prior generation 3 series BMW's were weak and sometimes failed. I authorized him to repair the car, and sure enough, he found major failures in the rear sub-frame. He had to re-weld some of it and add gussets to add additional strength.
I don't know if this is what led to your problem, but I never owned another BMW again, and after that, I switched to Porsches. I know the BMW 3 series cars are raced a lot at the club level in SCCA and NASA. I sure hope that those who do address these structural issues before racing them.
Get back on the horse and go racing again! In a Porsche!!
I don't know if this is what led to your problem, but I never owned another BMW again, and after that, I switched to Porsches. I know the BMW 3 series cars are raced a lot at the club level in SCCA and NASA. I sure hope that those who do address these structural issues before racing them.
Get back on the horse and go racing again! In a Porsche!!
Worn rear trailing arm bushings are an infamous cause of dartiness in these cars, but this comes on very slowly - it sounds like what happened to you developed during the session thus this is unlikely. The failure mode here is the rear trailing arm pocket rips out and the rear trailing arm rotates. If the pocket is still in the car, that didn't happen especially if the front of the trailing arm (the rear is still attached to the wheel) is still there. If it is not, it will be hard to tell with all the post primary failure damage.
With your provided data, I'm inclined to agree with 24Chromium quoted above. Cracks in the subframe are common and relatively difficult to check for. When it got greasy, these cracks were likely opening up and the rear alignment settings started moving around. These cars are very sensitive to rear alignment settings. When it let got, you likely lost the inside connection to the upper or lower control arm and that was it.
I suppose it is also possible that a fastener worked itself loose - I'd look over the rear on a lift and look for backed off bolts or the cracks. If a bolt let got, the rear subframe should still be attached.
Good to hear you are okay and the safety equipment worked. One thing about these cars is if all off a sudden they start feeling squirrely, get off the track, it is not your imagination. A bit greasy is much harder to evaluate.
-Mike
#21
Originally Posted by TXE36
Yes, I recall this problem with the E46s. E36s didn't have the subframe problem nearly as often, although you do have to reinforce the shock towers and rear anti-roll bar mounts, likely because the E36s don't support the wider tires of the E46. The picture of the LR tire is pretty catastrophic, as everything is broke, but that is likely due to it being ripped off the car. The shock appears to have height adjust threads on it, so it looks like the car had a rear coil-over conversion - not cheap. In stock form, the rear has springs on perches and separate shocks.
Worn rear trailing arm bushings are an infamous cause of dartiness in these cars, but this comes on very slowly - it sounds like what happened to you developed during the session thus this is unlikely. The failure mode here is the rear trailing arm pocket rips out and the rear trailing arm rotates. If the pocket is still in the car, that didn't happen especially if the front of the trailing arm (the rear is still attached to the wheel) is still there. If it is not, it will be hard to tell with all the post primary failure damage.
With your provided data, I'm inclined to agree with 24Chromium quoted above. Cracks in the subframe are common and relatively difficult to check for. When it got greasy, these cracks were likely opening up and the rear alignment settings started moving around. These cars are very sensitive to rear alignment settings. When it let got, you likely lost the inside connection to the upper or lower control arm and that was it.
I suppose it is also possible that a fastener worked itself loose - I'd look over the rear on a lift and look for backed off bolts or the cracks. If a bolt let got, the rear subframe should still be attached.
Good to hear you are okay and the safety equipment worked. One thing about these cars is if all off a sudden they start feeling squirrely, get off the track, it is not your imagination. A bit greasy is much harder to evaluate.
-Mike
Worn rear trailing arm bushings are an infamous cause of dartiness in these cars, but this comes on very slowly - it sounds like what happened to you developed during the session thus this is unlikely. The failure mode here is the rear trailing arm pocket rips out and the rear trailing arm rotates. If the pocket is still in the car, that didn't happen especially if the front of the trailing arm (the rear is still attached to the wheel) is still there. If it is not, it will be hard to tell with all the post primary failure damage.
With your provided data, I'm inclined to agree with 24Chromium quoted above. Cracks in the subframe are common and relatively difficult to check for. When it got greasy, these cracks were likely opening up and the rear alignment settings started moving around. These cars are very sensitive to rear alignment settings. When it let got, you likely lost the inside connection to the upper or lower control arm and that was it.
I suppose it is also possible that a fastener worked itself loose - I'd look over the rear on a lift and look for backed off bolts or the cracks. If a bolt let got, the rear subframe should still be attached.
Good to hear you are okay and the safety equipment worked. One thing about these cars is if all off a sudden they start feeling squirrely, get off the track, it is not your imagination. A bit greasy is much harder to evaluate.
-Mike
I have MCS like in the pic. They can be set up in true coil over or to use the normal configuration. It looks like it was not used in true coil over set up.
I agree most like cause was RTAB pocket failure. A guy at VIR had similar failure a couple of years ago and rolled over once or twice IIRC.
#22
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Wow, big hit. I'm glad you are okay and the safety gear worked for the most part. I feel bad for you and the car owner.
Portland is a pretty safe track but there are still lots of walls without tire barriers to find. I've done all my crashing on the back straight at PIR. Hopefully you don't get a bill from the track to straighten the wall. I've had to pay for PIR armco. Not a fun bill to get with an already busted up car.
Portland is a pretty safe track but there are still lots of walls without tire barriers to find. I've done all my crashing on the back straight at PIR. Hopefully you don't get a bill from the track to straighten the wall. I've had to pay for PIR armco. Not a fun bill to get with an already busted up car.
#23
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Wow, big hit. I'm glad you are okay and the safety gear worked for the most part. I feel bad for you and the car owner.
Portland is a pretty safe track but there are still lots of walls without tire barriers to find. I've done all my crashing on the back straight at PIR. Hopefully you don't get a bill from the track to straighten the wall. I've had to pay for PIR armco. Not a fun bill to get with an already busted up car.
Portland is a pretty safe track but there are still lots of walls without tire barriers to find. I've done all my crashing on the back straight at PIR. Hopefully you don't get a bill from the track to straighten the wall. I've had to pay for PIR armco. Not a fun bill to get with an already busted up car.
#24
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Here is a report for someone who saw crash:
”I witnessed the accident.
It appeared to me something failed on the driver's side rear suspension. That corner of the car "fell down" and pinched the tire on that side to where it was not rotating. I believe the driver hit the brakes immediately. 3 corners of the car tried to slow. The damaged corner did not. The braking pitched the car into a slow spin. The damaged corner of the car slid out and around. The car rotated towards the passenger side. I am not sure if the driver made an attempt to counter-steer against the slide. The car made a 1/2 turn spin, from driver's left to driver's right, where the driver's side of the car impacted the wall with incredible force previous to the turn 1 station, approximately across track from the 500 brake marker.
There was a single tire skid mark where the car had fallen on that rear wheel all the way to the impact location. ABS wouldn't have done that in my opinion. On impact, the entire assembly was ejected from the vehicle and flew a fair distance from it.“
”I witnessed the accident.
It appeared to me something failed on the driver's side rear suspension. That corner of the car "fell down" and pinched the tire on that side to where it was not rotating. I believe the driver hit the brakes immediately. 3 corners of the car tried to slow. The damaged corner did not. The braking pitched the car into a slow spin. The damaged corner of the car slid out and around. The car rotated towards the passenger side. I am not sure if the driver made an attempt to counter-steer against the slide. The car made a 1/2 turn spin, from driver's left to driver's right, where the driver's side of the car impacted the wall with incredible force previous to the turn 1 station, approximately across track from the 500 brake marker.
There was a single tire skid mark where the car had fallen on that rear wheel all the way to the impact location. ABS wouldn't have done that in my opinion. On impact, the entire assembly was ejected from the vehicle and flew a fair distance from it.“
#26
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A concrete barrier isn't supposed to move like that, they're generally designed to be "rigid." But in this case, since it appears to be have deformed smoothly without creating offsets which snagged the car, the movement of the barrier may have helped reduce the crash severity. If they tried to send me a bill for straightening the barrier, I'd be telling them "your barrier isn't supposed to move."
Wow, what a nasty crash. i had one at Sonoma that did the same job on the barrier. however, after i was hit by a lapped car, and ended up into the Kwall at near 100mph, they put a couple of rows of tires for even better protection for future impacts in that area of the track. the barrier moving is what could have been part of what saved him. I know it saved me! they do move and it doest take much to reduce the gs at impact, tremendously.
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Wow, what a nasty crash. i had one at Sonoma that did the same job on the barrier. however, after i was hit by a lapped car, and ended up into the Kwall at near 100mph, they put a couple of rows of tires for even better protection for future impacts in that area of the track. the barrier moving is what could have been part of what saved him. I know it saved me! they do move and it doest take much to reduce the gs at impact, tremendously.
#28
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#30
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Interesting comparison here, it's from the ISS site, there are more out there. http://www.impactsafetybarriers.com/...e-analysis.php