GVA-SFO

Instead of treating the others of being stupid, or wishing me to be hurt, (btw, quite close to be considered as hate speech), you should may be try to think:
The safety is like everything down to Earth : Something that HAS LIMITS.
But, I understand by your words that this it is most probably beyond your possibilities.

First of all, let me make things clear : I do respect all of you, that using AR all the time on track, this is more than fine for me.
I would also like to make a special public thank you statement: One (1) of you sent me a nice PM : a polite, with a very friendly recommendation to use AR.
This is what I consider as being a VERY intelligent and constructive attitude. Thank you again, I did appreciated your message deeply.

To be back on the answer to @jdistefa :
I just have a different view, and I also observe from some of your posts that you consider that I’m stupid ..simply because I have a different view.
One day, you should try to learn about a word : “empathy”.
(Or may be, this is as well to far to be reached for you.)

And may be trying to understand that in the definition of extremism you ..simply have the total lack of it.

Are you going to write to the Formula 1 Driver Association, to call for having AR as being required ? (It is true that those cars (F1) are much faster than the ones used during HPDE, ..and, for sure, they are on races.)
Btw, I discussed recently with Le Mans organizers, and: Arm Restraints has never been seen at Le Mans. (Even said : Dangerous in case of emergency car exit.)
It is also true that since 2017, open cars are no longer accepted in Le Mans.

I still consider that using AR on track, for gentlemen track days, is (FOR ME) simply too much of safety, v.s. the disagreement of feeling handcuffed.

Sure, you can ask : Why too much (on safety) ???
Simply because, for me, obligation of use AR for my personal safety during HPDE is not in the proportion/level of ..also accepting the risks to drive a car on open roads.

For example, a simple story : some months ago, waiting for my wife in the parking lot of a Rite-Aid store, seating high up in a SUV, with windows closed, a guy came back on the car parked next to me. He took a CD plastic holder in his glove box, put white stuff on it making a line, and sniff it. Then, put everything back on the glove box, turn the key, and left into the traffic..
This is typically what you can face in the open roads.
Now, you may think this is extreme, ..but what about alcohol ? How many of you have seen people going to restaurants, drinking a bottle of wine, and later, taking cars to go back home ?
Driving a car on open road is NOT safe at all. ..but we “all” still accept to do that, ..without helmets !
And etc.. (i.e.: excess of medications dangerous for keeping attention.)

In my life, long time ago, I also did ski races, and you know what ? I did never used an helmet, ..and no other ones racing at that time ever did !
I also did a lot of go kart (by the way, this is how I started to drive on track).
In all my go kart experiences, it is true that I flipped, (only one time). Yes, it was scary, but, I was lucky, just got nothing that day.

All to say, and reading a lot about it, I still consider that forcing some people (with open cars only) to use AR is a non sense and is safety extremism. (For those talking about roof “OEM quality/safety), do you have ever seen what is the OEM roof of a Boxster Spyder ? (or : AR for open, and no AR for Spyder roof looks simply like a joke to my eyes.)

Or, may be another one : here, all of you talking about REAL safety, and also looking talking and dreaming about a track called Nürburgring : Have you been there ?
I have been there few times and I can simply tell you that driving a convertible open with no safety belts and no helmet in Laguna Seca is probably 10 times safer, ..than being on track at the Ring with a car equipped with all the safety devices you can imagine.
(So, here too, for those that give praise to the Nürburgring, please try to think a little further ..before thinking to oblige open roof drivers to use Arm restraints !)

If you decide to drive on track (again, NOT Racing, nor Time Trial, nor ½ miles sprints), but simply gentleman HPDE, for sure you do ***accept*** to take some risks.
But, in my opinion using harness, neck protections, arm restraints, roll bar, etc.. that are devices to self protect, (no safety effects of any kind to the others) should/must remain at the decision of each participants.
In my fun/track car, I do have a roll bar, (that forced me to remove the roof), I do have an harness, I use a Hans, I wear gloves, and frankly, I have no envy to remove the roll bar, the harness, stop to use Hans, ..to have the roof back in place, ..and be able to drive it with the OEM 3pts seat belt !
May be, here we can use the term of “stupid choice”.

About Porsche (and PCA), we are all free to buy a 911 Turbo S Convertible, get the delivery in Germany, and drive it well over 300km/h on German freeways. (Porsche decided to not sign for limiting the cars at 250kmh like other German manufacturers.) and this seems to not trigger any effect on you ! (I seriously doubt we will ever see convertibles equipped with AR by factories, ..and beeping when not connected !)

I can terminate this by saying : I think I have more risks to be killed by attending to concerts, (which I do more than HPDE !) ..than loosing my hands while driving an open roof car (on open roads, ..much more than on tracks!)
The real sentence should be (again for HPDE, not for racing) : after some decent basic levels, let people manage the risks (there own self protections), giving appropriate recommendations, ..but no obligations.
..Or very simply you (via PCA) become a” safety integrist”.
And, for example, in the next potential steps, with such type of thinking on mind, PCA could very well have HPDE future ..with 55mph limits !

Since some years, I gave up PCA track days, being member of other car clubs and track days organizers (giving my favors to those organizing days with a maximum of 3 groups and limited amount of car per groups), and enjoy this choice. (When I take a day off to track, I do not get the feel of spending a day waiting for one of the 4 sessions).
The only reason of this post was to give a try to get PCA thinking a bit more about this, but reading most of the posts above, I clearly understood that I lost my time.

Also, what I read above, made me removing the PCA sticker out of my track/fun car. When I did seriously hesitated to renew my PCA membership last time, for the next year end, I will simply not renew.
With my total respect for the safety solutions you like to use for mitigating the risks during HPDE (again, NOT talking about any type of races).

PS : Yes, even on Formula one, (true, this photo is not yesterday! 2006 in Indianapolis) you could hurt your hands, but in the case of Nick Heidfeld (Sauber BMW), he was just fine, walking out uninjured, ..after an extremely brutal 4 barrel.
(I suppose that @jdistefa would also qualify Nick Heidfeld as stupid. He continued in Formula one, up to late 2011.) Btw, still today, ..no AR in Formula 1!

Coochas

^^^This has got to be one of the most stubborn individuals to ever play on Rennlist.
Wow.

Thundermoose

TLDR -what was his point this time?

LuigiVampa

Matt's comments amount to hate speech. That's the summation.

DTMiller

The universally recognized protected class of upper class track enthusiasts reluctant to use mandated protective gear.

sbelles

Love mine, I was happy to loose the arm restraints. The fit is great on my cage and most I've seem. I installed under the cage and then put the padding on the cross bar over top of it and zip tied it up. No sag and I don't even see it.

Streak

"But, in my opinion using harness, neck protections, arm restraints, roll bar, etc.. that are devices to self protect, (no safety effects of any kind to the others) should/must remain at the decision of each participants."

I suggest you contact the insurance companies of all the varied entities involved in a PCA Driver's Education event and promote this idea of self regulated safety standards and see if they will still insure the event. And when they tell you to get fukd see how much PCA would charge to run an uninsured event.

How is it that you don't understand that all of this is designed to mitigate risk not only to you but to the track owners, the club and anyone else involved. And it's common sense. You get killed or crippled because you decided not to wear a Hans and your widow sues everyone she can. Every time that happens it gets harder to put on these events. Eventually there won't be any.

You personally are a risk and understanding you would be likely to not comply with the safety mandates of a PCA event I wouldn't accept you as a participant.

Seriously, this is window licking levels of stupid.

Somehow we will get by without your renewal. Somehow . . .

LuigiVampa

GVA-SFO - We all like to have fun on this forum and debate our positions. If you are going to get hurty feelings you are going to have to start by looking in the mirror. Most of your posts revolve around three central themes: 1. PCA sucks; 2. safety rules are stupid; and 3. PCA instructors are arrogant.

Ask yourself, what kind of well measured responses are you expecting when most of your "logic and reasoning" amounts to slinging $hit at an organization many of us care about. Not to mention that your position on DE and club racing safety, when you get around to discussing it, is completely wrongheaded.

Do yourself a favor - look in the mirror and repeat this phrase "I am not a pro racecar driver". Say it enough times that you realize that DE/club racing and pro racing are two separate animals.

I hope you never give us all a big "told you so" moment because that is where you are heading!

+1

I was going to get drunk and write something like this but you saved me the trouble.

tgsmith4845

ProCoach

GVA-SFO

Frankly, I’m quite chocked by your attitude and comments here about this topic.
i.e.:
When people do not think like you, for you, there are simply stupid, ..and stubborn.

If you would know more about Motorsport and history, you would know that Arm Restraints are not used in Europe.
For example, because of this topic, I just had an exchange with a multiple Le Mans winner, that confirmed to me that ..he never used AR !
(Sure, his last victories there were with closed cars, but he made some others with open cars!)

All to say that being an European, it looks like I do not have the same view and behavior than you.
Again, I do fully respect your view, but will not fully express here what I think about those that treat me as stupid and stubborn ..because I do not think like them.
(This is just the same attitude as any fanatics : pretty horrible.)

Also, about responsibilities and track insurances, I’m a person, that when I sign (like everyone that access a track) a covenant for accepting ALL risks and signing for no law suite, I respect and assume what I decided and signed for. May be you are different !

I think everything has been said about this topic that I opened (most probably I was wrong doing so) and I do want to read more about it.
I just want to close it.
Have good track days, bye.