Massive crash at Laguna tody?
10-16-2018, 04:01 PM
#106
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 12,395
Received 3,747 Likes
on
2,172 Posts
It seems that he was told he had a leak earlier by a participant and still went on track (doesn't seem to be reported to track organizer). That particular car seems to have mechanical issues in the past (it's a small community and people usually know this type of stuff about each other).
I'm certainly aware that even the latest model cars can have leaks (i had a coolant leak on a brand new car on track). However, the older cars seem to be the ones leaking the most (video i posted earlier from sonoma and this particular incident all within a couple of weeks of each other)...
I'm going to have to start making some noise with organizers that maybe "self tech" and honor system isn't good enough for HPDE track days.
I'm certainly aware that even the latest model cars can have leaks (i had a coolant leak on a brand new car on track). However, the older cars seem to be the ones leaking the most (video i posted earlier from sonoma and this particular incident all within a couple of weeks of each other)...
I'm going to have to start making some noise with organizers that maybe "self tech" and honor system isn't good enough for HPDE track days.
10-16-2018, 04:41 PM
#107
Rennlist Member
...
Last edited by Coochas; 10-17-2018 at 10:27 AM.
10-16-2018, 06:30 PM
#108
T7 stand usually vacant
Usually there is a corner worker at T7 as you come up the hill and it appears that that day no one was there. It looks like a few cars went over the spilled oil but were lucky to save it (prior to the crash). My guess is that corner worker at T8 saw cars loosing control and probably stepped out to warn others. Unfortunately if the oil was on the track at the braking zone it’s too late for a warning. I would think if there was a worker at T7 a lot of this could have been avoided.
As for the black meatball flag. Perhaps it’s not a standard issue for all stations? Believe I’ve only seen it deployed at T6 and S/F at Laguna for HPDE events.
Lastly, condolences to the track marshall’s family and friends. Certainly this was a person who dearly loved this sport/hobby but tragically paid the ultimate price for it. Godspeed to him.
10-16-2018, 07:04 PM
#109
Rennlist Member
This is certainly a terrible mishap. Condolences to the corner worker’s family and friends who are dealing with the loss.
Also thiinking about the driver who hit him. I know that would weigh heavily on me.
Also thiinking about the driver who hit him. I know that would weigh heavily on me.
Last edited by tgsmith4845; 10-16-2018 at 08:15 PM.
10-16-2018, 08:53 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Tracked at Laguna 5 times now and only recall the T7 flag tower being occupied one of the days . This in 2018 with SpeedSF. Not sure if having this station covered is the track’s call or the event organizer’s. My bet is that this station will be covered at all events henceforth.
As for the black meatball flag. Perhaps it’s not a standard issue for all stations? Believe I’ve only seen it deployed at T6 and S/F at Laguna for HPDE events.
Lastly, condolences to the track marshall’s family and friends. Certainly this was a person who dearly loved this sport/hobby but tragically paid the ultimate price for it. Godspeed to him.
10-16-2018, 09:39 PM
#111
Rennlist Member
Very sad, condolences to all involved.
I think the speculation is mostly folks wanting to make sure we avoid this in the future if we can, not idle gossip or disrespect.
Thank you corner workers.
I think the speculation is mostly folks wanting to make sure we avoid this in the future if we can, not idle gossip or disrespect.
Thank you corner workers.
10-17-2018, 12:54 AM
#112
Rennlist Member
10-17-2018, 02:00 AM
#113
While I do agree that going on track means that we have a car that is well prepared, the best we can, safe for us and safe for the others, we have to **all** remember that driving a car with an internal combustion engine could lead to oil problem.
Breaking an engine and spilling oil, is something that could happen to ***ALL*** of us.
Sure, the age of the engine could bring more chance of failure, but also, a small engine, with very high compression, (i.e.: Compressor, or turbo) to brings in a lot of power, ..could also be much less reliable.
Anyway, this is part of the game, that we do accept when we sign on for a track event.
Today we are all sensitive because of this oil problem, but tomorrow, it could be a debris or a default on a tire, ..that could trigger similar tragedy.
We could eliminate a part of the oil risk, ..by having track days that would accept only electric cars. Do you really want that ??
Still, in such a case, ..what's if a car gets a failure on the brake circuit ?
One day, I broke one of my hip. Arriving at the emergency service, saying ..it was a very stupid accident, I got an immediate response from a Doctor : "You know, long time being active on emergency room : I NEVER seen a clever accident."
I think it is good to remember that.
The only super sad thing we can all think about, is to NEVER-EVER be up standing, walking, running on a HOT track, even if there is a fire in a car. You may try to save a live, ..but you put yourself on the big risk to lose yours.
This is the horrible fact in this story, as I'm sure, this walk was done only to better let **US** know that there was a very serious danger right there.
It is very sad, really very very sad.
Breaking an engine and spilling oil, is something that could happen to ***ALL*** of us.
Sure, the age of the engine could bring more chance of failure, but also, a small engine, with very high compression, (i.e.: Compressor, or turbo) to brings in a lot of power, ..could also be much less reliable.
Anyway, this is part of the game, that we do accept when we sign on for a track event.
Today we are all sensitive because of this oil problem, but tomorrow, it could be a debris or a default on a tire, ..that could trigger similar tragedy.
We could eliminate a part of the oil risk, ..by having track days that would accept only electric cars. Do you really want that ??
Still, in such a case, ..what's if a car gets a failure on the brake circuit ?
One day, I broke one of my hip. Arriving at the emergency service, saying ..it was a very stupid accident, I got an immediate response from a Doctor : "You know, long time being active on emergency room : I NEVER seen a clever accident."
I think it is good to remember that.
The only super sad thing we can all think about, is to NEVER-EVER be up standing, walking, running on a HOT track, even if there is a fire in a car. You may try to save a live, ..but you put yourself on the big risk to lose yours.
This is the horrible fact in this story, as I'm sure, this walk was done only to better let **US** know that there was a very serious danger right there.
It is very sad, really very very sad.
10-17-2018, 02:25 AM
#114
While I do agree that going on track means that we have a car that is well prepared, the best we can, safe for us and safe for the others, we have to **all** remember that driving a car with an internal combustion engine could lead to oil problem.
Breaking an engine and spilling oil, is something that could happen to ***ALL*** of us.
Sure, the age of the engine could bring more chance of failure, but also, a small engine, with very high compression, (i.e.: Compressor, or turbo) to brings in a lot of power, ..could also be much less reliable.
Anyway, this is part of the game, that we do accept when we sign on for a track event.
Today we are all sensitive because of this oil problem, but tomorrow, it could be a debris or a default on a tire, ..that could trigger similar tragedy.
We could eliminate a part of the oil risk, ..by having track days that would accept only electric cars. Do you really want that ??
Still, in such a case, ..what's if a car gets a failure on the brake circuit ?
One day, I broke one of my hip. Arriving at the emergency service, saying ..it was a very stupid accident, I got an immediate response from a Doctor : "You know, long time being active on emergency room : I NEVER seen a clever accident."
I think it is good to remember that.
The only super sad thing we can all think about, is to NEVER-EVER be up standing, walking, running on a HOT track, even if there is a fire in a car. You may try to save a live, ..but you put yourself on the big risk to lose yours.
This is the horrible fact in this story, as I'm sure, this walk was done only to better let **US** know that there was a very serious danger right there.
It is very sad, really very very sad.
Breaking an engine and spilling oil, is something that could happen to ***ALL*** of us.
Sure, the age of the engine could bring more chance of failure, but also, a small engine, with very high compression, (i.e.: Compressor, or turbo) to brings in a lot of power, ..could also be much less reliable.
Anyway, this is part of the game, that we do accept when we sign on for a track event.
Today we are all sensitive because of this oil problem, but tomorrow, it could be a debris or a default on a tire, ..that could trigger similar tragedy.
We could eliminate a part of the oil risk, ..by having track days that would accept only electric cars. Do you really want that ??
Still, in such a case, ..what's if a car gets a failure on the brake circuit ?
One day, I broke one of my hip. Arriving at the emergency service, saying ..it was a very stupid accident, I got an immediate response from a Doctor : "You know, long time being active on emergency room : I NEVER seen a clever accident."
I think it is good to remember that.
The only super sad thing we can all think about, is to NEVER-EVER be up standing, walking, running on a HOT track, even if there is a fire in a car. You may try to save a live, ..but you put yourself on the big risk to lose yours.
This is the horrible fact in this story, as I'm sure, this walk was done only to better let **US** know that there was a very serious danger right there.
It is very sad, really very very sad.
I get what you are saying. However, risks have to be mitigated. You can't just bring any car and not take care of it properly, have problems in the past, it's not cost effective for you and put everyone on track in danger by ticking boxes that you don't even understand or even know what it is... and then expect people to say "hey crap happens and we know the risks".
Different organizations (which some have posted on here) have mitigated mechanical deficiencies in cars based on their experience. Maybe that is a way for all organizations to go.
Laguna Seca already put in additional procedures to mitigate a risk due to this incident and I'm sure many other track organizations in our area will also mitigate risks with mandatory Tech inspections, and not allow certain cars (age or otherwise to get on track)etc. to make it safer for everyone else.
A lot of lives changed on Sunday due to a mechanical issue that wasn't a fluke.
10-17-2018, 03:08 AM
#115
Frankly, I do not think you mitigate a significant part of the oil risk by technical "inspections".
For example, in a modern engine, you connect your computer and change some ratios in the ecu, ..and move out from a safe engine operation area, ...right into a dangerous place.
Thinking that technical inspection would control this is simply dreaming.
One (very sad) thing to say today is very different : no human presence on a hot track, and this with NO exception.
If you think that you can start today with a 10'000 dollars pretrack day inspection mandatory ..You can end up tomorrow with a 55mph speed limit on track.
Shall we also remember here about safety on track, that safety on roads, ..i.e., to arrive on track, we all accept and know that in the public roads, many drivers do NOT even have have an insurance. And this is why many of us have to have an additional insurance in case you get hit by an uninsred motorist.
So, please, let's try to not react in a irresponsive manner.
I'm the type of guy that would see the future of modern tracks in a different ways : no more flagmen, but cameras, sensors and large electronic panels all over the (track) place, all controlled by humans located in avery safe and comfy room.
Ok, this would probably raise the price of the track rental, but ..it would have saved a life of a great person last Sunday.
I continue to think that this is a very very sad story.
For example, in a modern engine, you connect your computer and change some ratios in the ecu, ..and move out from a safe engine operation area, ...right into a dangerous place.
Thinking that technical inspection would control this is simply dreaming.
One (very sad) thing to say today is very different : no human presence on a hot track, and this with NO exception.
If you think that you can start today with a 10'000 dollars pretrack day inspection mandatory ..You can end up tomorrow with a 55mph speed limit on track.
Shall we also remember here about safety on track, that safety on roads, ..i.e., to arrive on track, we all accept and know that in the public roads, many drivers do NOT even have have an insurance. And this is why many of us have to have an additional insurance in case you get hit by an uninsred motorist.
So, please, let's try to not react in a irresponsive manner.
I'm the type of guy that would see the future of modern tracks in a different ways : no more flagmen, but cameras, sensors and large electronic panels all over the (track) place, all controlled by humans located in avery safe and comfy room.
Ok, this would probably raise the price of the track rental, but ..it would have saved a life of a great person last Sunday.
I continue to think that this is a very very sad story.
10-17-2018, 08:33 AM
#116
The risks are mitigated by everyone following protocols and procedures. One of which is the drivers meeting, where and differences in flags is also discussed. I have been on too many race weekends where its obvious all drivers are not attending the drivers meeting.
10-17-2018, 09:18 AM
#117
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Mid-Atlantic (on land, not in the middle of the ocean)
Posts: 12,395
Received 3,747 Likes
on
2,172 Posts
Frankly, I do not think you mitigate a significant part of the oil risk by technical "inspections".
For example, in a modern engine, you connect your computer and change some ratios in the ecu, ..and move out from a safe engine operation area, ...right into a dangerous place.
Thinking that technical inspection would control this is simply dreaming.
One (very sad) thing to say today is very different : no human presence on a hot track, and this with NO exception.
If you think that you can start today with a 10'000 dollars pretrack day inspection mandatory ..You can end up tomorrow with a 55mph speed limit on track.
Shall we also remember here about safety on track, that safety on roads, ..i.e., to arrive on track, we all accept and know that in the public roads, many drivers do NOT even have have an insurance. And this is why many of us have to have an additional insurance in case you get hit by an uninsred motorist.
So, please, let's try to not react in a irresponsive manner.
I'm the type of guy that would see the future of modern tracks in a different ways : no more flagmen, but cameras, sensors and large electronic panels all over the (track) place, all controlled by humans located in avery safe and comfy room.
Ok, this would probably raise the price of the track rental, but ..it would have saved a life of a great person last Sunday.
I continue to think that this is a very very sad story.
For example, in a modern engine, you connect your computer and change some ratios in the ecu, ..and move out from a safe engine operation area, ...right into a dangerous place.
Thinking that technical inspection would control this is simply dreaming.
One (very sad) thing to say today is very different : no human presence on a hot track, and this with NO exception.
If you think that you can start today with a 10'000 dollars pretrack day inspection mandatory ..You can end up tomorrow with a 55mph speed limit on track.
Shall we also remember here about safety on track, that safety on roads, ..i.e., to arrive on track, we all accept and know that in the public roads, many drivers do NOT even have have an insurance. And this is why many of us have to have an additional insurance in case you get hit by an uninsred motorist.
So, please, let's try to not react in a irresponsive manner.
I'm the type of guy that would see the future of modern tracks in a different ways : no more flagmen, but cameras, sensors and large electronic panels all over the (track) place, all controlled by humans located in avery safe and comfy room.
Ok, this would probably raise the price of the track rental, but ..it would have saved a life of a great person last Sunday.
I continue to think that this is a very very sad story.
In this case, it’s reported that the driver was told he had a leak, which a tech inspection presumably would have caught.
When you’re putting OTHERS at risk, the standard of responsibility and accountability needs to be higher.
As I said before, the corner worker should be praised rather than faulted if he was trying to cover for an unmanned station while he knew there was a major hazard on track.
10-17-2018, 11:08 AM
#118
years ago at Summit Point where I was acting as chief steward, I had a 911 lose its oil return tube just past start finish. Before I could grab the debris flag to signal a problem and call for black flag all to slow the cars and bring them in, a Cup car came by at full chat, hit the oil and vaulted the fence into the spectator area. No one was there thankfully and giving the construction of the Cup car, the driver walked away. When you go on the track anything can happen and you need to be prepared. What is so sad in this case is a worker trying, I assume, to warn on coming cars paid the ultimate price. God bless him
10-17-2018, 11:18 AM
#119
Frankly, I do not think you mitigate a significant part of the oil risk by technical "inspections".
For example, in a modern engine, you connect your computer and change some ratios in the ecu, ..and move out from a safe engine operation area, ...right into a dangerous place.
Thinking that technical inspection would control this is simply dreaming.
One (very sad) thing to say today is very different : no human presence on a hot track, and this with NO exception.
If you think that you can start today with a 10'000 dollars pretrack day inspection mandatory ..You can end up tomorrow with a 55mph speed limit on track.
Shall we also remember here about safety on track, that safety on roads, ..i.e., to arrive on track, we all accept and know that in the public roads, many drivers do NOT even have have an insurance. And this is why many of us have to have an additional insurance in case you get hit by an uninsred motorist.
So, please, let's try to not react in a irresponsive manner.
I'm the type of guy that would see the future of modern tracks in a different ways : no more flagmen, but cameras, sensors and large electronic panels all over the (track) place, all controlled by humans located in avery safe and comfy room.
Ok, this would probably raise the price of the track rental, but ..it would have saved a life of a great person last Sunday.
I continue to think that this is a very very sad story.
For example, in a modern engine, you connect your computer and change some ratios in the ecu, ..and move out from a safe engine operation area, ...right into a dangerous place.
Thinking that technical inspection would control this is simply dreaming.
One (very sad) thing to say today is very different : no human presence on a hot track, and this with NO exception.
If you think that you can start today with a 10'000 dollars pretrack day inspection mandatory ..You can end up tomorrow with a 55mph speed limit on track.
Shall we also remember here about safety on track, that safety on roads, ..i.e., to arrive on track, we all accept and know that in the public roads, many drivers do NOT even have have an insurance. And this is why many of us have to have an additional insurance in case you get hit by an uninsred motorist.
So, please, let's try to not react in a irresponsive manner.
I'm the type of guy that would see the future of modern tracks in a different ways : no more flagmen, but cameras, sensors and large electronic panels all over the (track) place, all controlled by humans located in avery safe and comfy room.
Ok, this would probably raise the price of the track rental, but ..it would have saved a life of a great person last Sunday.
I continue to think that this is a very very sad story.
The track organizers mitigate their risks with waivers, signed tech inspection sheets, helmets meeting certain criteria
Car manufactures mitigate their risk by not covering car warranties for track driving
Some drivers mitigate their risk by having track insurance
Some track insurance companies mitigate their risk by not covering advance passing groups with certain organizers
Drivers mitigate their risks by staying within themselves and not "racing"
I, personally would not be able to carry out the self tech to my own car and I track a lot ( I wouldn't even know how many MM's my pads have left, tread wear on my tires, etc.). I mitigate this risk by having my car checked each and every time by Mclaren SF or a third party shop before I step on track.
Risks can be mitigated as much as possible.
I accept the risks if my fellow drivers have followed all protocols and if some flukey thing happens then it happens.
The car driver/owner that spilled the oil is infamous for mechanical issues and was told earlier that he was leaking oil... by the driver of the car who actually hit the flagger (they were parked beside each other in the paddock). Before the gravity of the situation was known; I talked to the owner of the RWB and his tech who was trying to clean up the oil on his rear bumper and it was still leaking a lot on the ground and told him that 3 cars were down and the flagger was down. He didn't understand the gravity of the situation as he just shrugged his shoulders and continued to just look over his car.
Manifold - you are correct. Flagger used his natural instincts to try to save the one car that was already down and people coming up on him.
10-17-2018, 11:41 AM
#120
The car driver/owner that spilled the oil is infamous for mechanical issues and was told earlier that he was leaking oil... by the driver of the car who actually hit the flagger (they were parked beside each other in the paddock). Before the gravity of the situation was known; I talked to the owner of the RWB and his tech who was trying to clean up the oil on his rear bumper and it was still leaking a lot on the ground and told him that 3 cars were down and the flagger was down. He didn't understand the gravity of the situation as he just shrugged his shoulders and continued to just look over his car.
Manifold - you are correct. Flagger used his natural instincts to try to save the one car that was already down and people coming up on him.
Manifold - you are correct. Flagger used his natural instincts to try to save the one car that was already down and people coming up on him.
"Natural instincts" have a way of causing bad things on the track if not mitigated by situational awareness/knowledge such as lifting while going "too fast" in a corner. The flagger, following those instincts, put himself at great risk and paid the price. The flagger probably knew not to go on a hot track, but this one looked really bad and he tried to help. It really is a shame and tragedy.
But hey, oil slick guy got in a few more laps. (Dripping sarcasm)
-Mike