Massive crash at Laguna tody?
10-19-2018, 05:21 PM
#226
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Now, if for some you you, filing a form in which you engage yourself and sign that your car has for example no leak, means nothing for you, then I'm not going to write what I do think about you, and this simply to stay polite.
If you need to get the same paper from a shop, it looks to me that you are not at the age ..to drive a car. (Behaving like a child, to be accurate)
The idea of an honor system for tech and no controls at HPDEs? I don't know half the people I see in my run group at any given day, and you're saying I should just "trust them" when I can't even trust people to grid properly or place themselves in the right run group! If anything is "childish," it's the naivete of thinking people you don't know from Adam are doing things properly all of the time.
10-19-2018, 05:37 PM
#227
Three Wheelin'
I feel that I need to make some remarks about GVA-SVO's latest remarks about PCA.
I have been a member of the PCA for 30 years, starting in South Jersey. My first PCA event was a meeting. There were under 50 of us there, and the guest speaker was the late Bob Akin. My next event was a DE at Lime Rock Park. I had no experience with AX, karting or track driving. I had a 944 with 15k miles, I was in my late 20's and I dove right in.
I had a female instructor, who was excellent.
I worked a corner.
I was treated really well and I learned a lot.
After a few years in Jersey I moved due to a job change. Milwaukee Region. Some AX, and a DE at Blackhawk Farms.
I was treated really well and I learned a lot.
In 1991, I moved to Norcal. By then my 944 had acquired some stiffer Weltmeister springs and some Konis. Back then there were just two nearby tracks-- Laguna Seca and Sears Point.
After about a month I moved from Diablo Region to the GGR.
I quickly learned that here PCA track events were very different. They were called time trials. Four sessions on Saturday, two on Sunday morning, then timed solo laps Sunday afternoon. Cars were classed, and there were trophies each weekend, and for season championships.
The rules seemed over the top. Nomex required after your first two events as a student. If your car had a certain level of mods (like the slightly different springs in my 944) then you were in a class that required a roll bar or a roll cage. Those seemed pretty harsh to me.
I went to the required ground school well before my planned first event. It was a full day, and the CDI was an experienced and diligent. If I recall correctly, his son may have been there with him. His son just retired from pro racing-- JvO.
I did a few AX events, and met a bunch of people.
I was treated really well and I learned a lot.
I visited GGR TT events at Sears Point and Laguna Seca. It became clear why GGR had the requirements they had. Very clear. Very, very clear.
I attended an AX school in '94. Two days in the parking lot at Candlestick Park. My wife attended as well. We were treated really well and learned a lot.
Then in 1995, I did my first Norcal track event-- two days at then new Thunderhill.
Had to go through another ground school, and a pre-event, off site tech.
These were, as much as anything, both academic and social events.
We learned how to do the right things the right way. And we got to know one another. Family atmosphere.
And the general focus (fat part of the curve) was always to do the right things the right way and learn the craft... and to get better and better.
I high percentage of the discussions in the paddock were focused on the CRAFT. Not as much THE EXPERIENCE. ALL ages, both genders. THE CRAFT. Doing the right things the right way. Of course as much on safety and courtesy as going faster and competing.
I stayed pretty active with GGR TT events until I started racing more and more-- somewhere around 2003 or 2004. I helped create a group in 2001 so that we could race with the same type of "center of the fruit" culture as I experienced at GGR time trial events. The Porsche Racing Club. Most of us came through the PCA program. Those imprints are still visible today.
I have been around, and in my experience, the GGR was the best place for Porsche owners/drivers to start their driving careers. Starting at the center of the fruit. Doing things the right things the right way.
When new racers join my current group, it is easy to see where they came from... how they learned. And in some cases how it is different from my center-of-the-fruit and outward experience.
I know the folks that created groups like Trackmasters, HOD, NCRC, and many others. I have run with many, many different groups... both racing and DE/track day groups. I have raced in paid spectator events and won prize money.
What I have see develop in the past decade or so is a different hobby. Kind of epitomized, to some extent, by my former student's famous track day video cartoon that many of you have seen.
All or most of the manufacturers have now embraced DE/track day use in one way or another. First the internet in general, and now likely also fueled by social media, there are new cultures, and new "truths."
We see those things in Forums like this quite frequently. People are finding different ways to "compete." And it seems that for many, the "experience" is more important than the craft.
"Hey I increased my exit speed out of turn 15 by 200 rpm-- thanks for the tip," seems to have been replaced with "hey look at my video... that's me in my GT3RS passing that Ferrari."
I have seen a lot during 30 years with this hobby. I have made many friends. I have lost some, in track events and otherwise.
And yes, you can point to pass with arm restraints. People have been doing so for decades.
This hobby was not invented in Y2k.
I encourage that folks consider being part of the signal, and not the noise.
Try to understand and respect the center of the fruit.
I have been a member of the PCA for 30 years, starting in South Jersey. My first PCA event was a meeting. There were under 50 of us there, and the guest speaker was the late Bob Akin. My next event was a DE at Lime Rock Park. I had no experience with AX, karting or track driving. I had a 944 with 15k miles, I was in my late 20's and I dove right in.
I had a female instructor, who was excellent.
I worked a corner.
I was treated really well and I learned a lot.
After a few years in Jersey I moved due to a job change. Milwaukee Region. Some AX, and a DE at Blackhawk Farms.
I was treated really well and I learned a lot.
In 1991, I moved to Norcal. By then my 944 had acquired some stiffer Weltmeister springs and some Konis. Back then there were just two nearby tracks-- Laguna Seca and Sears Point.
After about a month I moved from Diablo Region to the GGR.
I quickly learned that here PCA track events were very different. They were called time trials. Four sessions on Saturday, two on Sunday morning, then timed solo laps Sunday afternoon. Cars were classed, and there were trophies each weekend, and for season championships.
The rules seemed over the top. Nomex required after your first two events as a student. If your car had a certain level of mods (like the slightly different springs in my 944) then you were in a class that required a roll bar or a roll cage. Those seemed pretty harsh to me.
I went to the required ground school well before my planned first event. It was a full day, and the CDI was an experienced and diligent. If I recall correctly, his son may have been there with him. His son just retired from pro racing-- JvO.
I did a few AX events, and met a bunch of people.
I was treated really well and I learned a lot.
I visited GGR TT events at Sears Point and Laguna Seca. It became clear why GGR had the requirements they had. Very clear. Very, very clear.
I attended an AX school in '94. Two days in the parking lot at Candlestick Park. My wife attended as well. We were treated really well and learned a lot.
Then in 1995, I did my first Norcal track event-- two days at then new Thunderhill.
Had to go through another ground school, and a pre-event, off site tech.
These were, as much as anything, both academic and social events.
We learned how to do the right things the right way. And we got to know one another. Family atmosphere.
And the general focus (fat part of the curve) was always to do the right things the right way and learn the craft... and to get better and better.
I high percentage of the discussions in the paddock were focused on the CRAFT. Not as much THE EXPERIENCE. ALL ages, both genders. THE CRAFT. Doing the right things the right way. Of course as much on safety and courtesy as going faster and competing.
I stayed pretty active with GGR TT events until I started racing more and more-- somewhere around 2003 or 2004. I helped create a group in 2001 so that we could race with the same type of "center of the fruit" culture as I experienced at GGR time trial events. The Porsche Racing Club. Most of us came through the PCA program. Those imprints are still visible today.
I have been around, and in my experience, the GGR was the best place for Porsche owners/drivers to start their driving careers. Starting at the center of the fruit. Doing things the right things the right way.
When new racers join my current group, it is easy to see where they came from... how they learned. And in some cases how it is different from my center-of-the-fruit and outward experience.
I know the folks that created groups like Trackmasters, HOD, NCRC, and many others. I have run with many, many different groups... both racing and DE/track day groups. I have raced in paid spectator events and won prize money.
What I have see develop in the past decade or so is a different hobby. Kind of epitomized, to some extent, by my former student's famous track day video cartoon that many of you have seen.
All or most of the manufacturers have now embraced DE/track day use in one way or another. First the internet in general, and now likely also fueled by social media, there are new cultures, and new "truths."
We see those things in Forums like this quite frequently. People are finding different ways to "compete." And it seems that for many, the "experience" is more important than the craft.
"Hey I increased my exit speed out of turn 15 by 200 rpm-- thanks for the tip," seems to have been replaced with "hey look at my video... that's me in my GT3RS passing that Ferrari."
I have seen a lot during 30 years with this hobby. I have made many friends. I have lost some, in track events and otherwise.
And yes, you can point to pass with arm restraints. People have been doing so for decades.
This hobby was not invented in Y2k.
I encourage that folks consider being part of the signal, and not the noise.
Try to understand and respect the center of the fruit.
Last edited by Mahler9th; 10-19-2018 at 07:07 PM.
10-19-2018, 05:49 PM
#228
Sorry, VERY SORRY, ..but I FULLY disagree with you.
For my eyes, PCA is the worse organization for track days in the Bay area.
Beside the context here of the tragedy of Sunday, an engine blow up, ..or water pipes blowing up that could happen to ALL and ANY organizers.
I'm (still, but probably not for long) a member of PCA (with more than one P car !), and consider that PCA rules becomes just crazy and full of non sense.
Exactly like I'm convinced that : too much admin kills democracy.
Why I do NOT like the PCA track days :
. it sucks: too many people, a lot of green horns, ..to end up with 4 or 5 groups per day.
If all goes well, you are on track for 4 sessions per day !
Tell me why PCA track days are overcrowded, ..but when PCA organize "fun run", than max of cars is set ?
(Only one explanation ,: more car on track = more profit)
. not counting that these "too many people" spend the (track) day walking around the cars with the nose very up, in brand new unused nomex and brand new shoes with the word Porsche stitched on all possible visible place. (Looks more like a fashion day than a sport track day.)
. and more specifically, for me, as I removed my top (boxster) to have a 6 point roll bar, I have been asked (by pca rules) to have arm restraints, which, I do not want too. (Note that I use Hans since some years, so, safety I care..), but, writing rules where open roof requires arm restraints when a super thin skin hardtop or a convertible roof is fine, ..is pure B.S. for me.
(btw, I still have not understood how you can (in a gentleman manner) "point to pass" ..with arm restraints !)
These above points makes me completely avoiding pca track days, and makes me thinking that I should seriously consider to quit this club of "tourist".
I know that many of you here have strong connections with this club, (i.e. "instructors", and other doing business with this club, but still consider that I have free speech rights to express my opinion here.
To be back about organizers, I would like to strongly support ETD and mention, to have been with them last Sunday, but also the other times ETD been in LS this year, it is a very high end and high quality organizer.
Now, if for some you you, filing a form in which you engage yourself and sign that your car has for example no leak, means nothing for you, then I'm not going to write what I do think about you, and this simply to stay polite.
If you need to get the same paper from a shop, it looks to me that you are not at the age ..to drive a car. (Behaving like a child, to be accurate)
Now, if you think that a car can NEVER have a catastrophic engine blow out, I can only suppose, ..that you have to buy a bike (with pedals, not engine) and ride it slowly.
It was a tragedy last Sunday, I'm still under the shock, and I'm still very sad and continue to think deeply about it.
10-19-2018, 05:57 PM
#229
Three Wheelin'
Another article on Mr. Reins:
https://www.thecalifornian.com/story...ng/1683547002/
Seems he had racing experience, which included Laguna Seca.
Seems like he may have been a center of the fruit kind of person.
Again, thoughts and prayers to all affected.
https://www.thecalifornian.com/story...ng/1683547002/
Seems he had racing experience, which included Laguna Seca.
Seems like he may have been a center of the fruit kind of person.
Again, thoughts and prayers to all affected.
10-19-2018, 06:03 PM
#230
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No track day organization is perfect, but some are better than others, and the range of variation is pretty wide. Safety research has shown that, across many fields and activities, the incident rate for the best performers is about 10x smaller than the worst performers. That's a huge difference.
As many have noted, many (not all) PCA regions are quite good -- they do events often, have a lot of experience, and are diligent about safety. For those who want lots of track time, Chin also has a lot of experience and does a good job with safety.
In my experience, the organizers who do events infrequently, have limited experience, and/or are lax about safety are the ones to avoid, even if they seem to offer more "freedom" -- we're talking about safety, not politics. I've been to a few events with such organizations, and decided never to return.
As many have noted, many (not all) PCA regions are quite good -- they do events often, have a lot of experience, and are diligent about safety. For those who want lots of track time, Chin also has a lot of experience and does a good job with safety.
In my experience, the organizers who do events infrequently, have limited experience, and/or are lax about safety are the ones to avoid, even if they seem to offer more "freedom" -- we're talking about safety, not politics. I've been to a few events with such organizations, and decided never to return.
10-19-2018, 06:06 PM
#231
Rennlist Member
Another article on Mr. Reins:
https://www.thecalifornian.com/story...ng/1683547002/
Seems he had racing experience, which included Laguna Seca.
Seems like he may have been a center of the fruit kind of person.
Again, thoughts and prayers to all affected.
https://www.thecalifornian.com/story...ng/1683547002/
Seems he had racing experience, which included Laguna Seca.
Seems like he may have been a center of the fruit kind of person.
Again, thoughts and prayers to all affected.
10-19-2018, 06:11 PM
#232
Three Wheelin'
Cars today are getting too fast (many are at race car speeds from just a couple years ago), and there are a plethora of relatively inexperienced drivers (relative laps compared to a race car driver who starts in karting at age 5 or 6) who all want to shave a second or two, and film their overtaking of another driver on track. DE controls and rules are hit or miss, and in general, it is getting more and more dangerous. And many of the RL crowd who believe they are good drivers.....have really only been to a bunch of DE events, and have yet to have a major decision making incident for themselves (myself included). RIP to the man who lost his life trying to protect others..... unfortunate decision he made that day.
10-20-2018, 11:44 AM
#233
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Cars today are getting too fast (many are at race car speeds from just a couple years ago), and there are a plethora of relatively inexperienced drivers (relative laps compared to a race car driver who starts in karting at age 5 or 6) who all want to shave a second or two, and film their overtaking of another driver on track. DE controls and rules are hit or miss, and in general, it is getting more and more dangerous. And many of the RL crowd who believe they are good drivers.....have really only been to a bunch of DE events, and have yet to have a major decision making incident for themselves (myself included). RIP to the man who lost his life trying to protect others..... unfortunate decision he made that day.
All of this said, I do think there's a problem of instructors increasingly not wanting to instruct in the faster cars. I get that - even if the real risk is pretty low, doesn't always feel good to be in the right seat of a car going pretty fast while being driven by a relatively inexperienced and unskilled driver. Despite having a lot of track miles in the 991 GT3, even I don't really like instructing drivers in the 991 GT3.
This sad incident doesn't really tell us anything "new" about track safety, but it reminds us to be diligent about safety in general, and about many specific things we need to do with respect to tech, reporting concerns to event management, flagger protection and procedures, car safety equipment, banning problematic drivers from events, etc.
10-20-2018, 11:46 AM
#234
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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10-20-2018, 01:09 PM
#235
Another article on Mr. Reins:
https://www.thecalifornian.com/story...ng/1683547002/
Seems he had racing experience, which included Laguna Seca.
Seems like he may have been a center of the fruit kind of person.
Again, thoughts and prayers to all affected.
https://www.thecalifornian.com/story...ng/1683547002/
Seems he had racing experience, which included Laguna Seca.
Seems like he may have been a center of the fruit kind of person.
Again, thoughts and prayers to all affected.
-Mike
10-20-2018, 02:29 PM
#236
Rennlist Member
I agree w “center of fruit” post entirely.
Can someone clarify: was the flagger reaching over the wall or standing in front of a break in the wall? It hardly matters, but still, I’d like to understand.
Can someone clarify: was the flagger reaching over the wall or standing in front of a break in the wall? It hardly matters, but still, I’d like to understand.
10-20-2018, 02:56 PM
#237
Doing a post mortem on an event like this is second nature to a lot of us. What happened, what did I do wrong, how can we avoid it and how can we prevent it in the future. I have had some bad accidents with instructors in my car and me driving......it scares the hell out of me. I don't mind risking my own life but in NO WAY do I wish to risk the lives of others. Every year I hear about events that have a driver or an instructor having an incident on some track here in the US. I have seen some incidence with corner workers in professional events and been very very concerned at the judgment presented but that is at a professional event. It never, NEVER occurred to me that a corner workers life could be this at risk at a HPDE. I realize we are all at risk to some extent and that accidents do occur but it never crossed my mind that a corner worker could be taken from us. I have always been very aware that PCA events can be a little over the top with safety procedures and rules and in some cases they may actually make things unsafe ( having faster cars/drivers in too slow a run group) But for the most part it has always been for safety and I have no problem with getting a tech inspection for my brand new car. No problem with top tech checking that nothing is in my car and no problem with restrictions that are there for my benefit. I love this little group of idiots that crosses borders, language barriers and oceans. Everybody is always the same no matter where I go great car enthusiasts of all colors creeds and nationalities. I'm lucky enough to own a very nice track car that many never get to see and always make it a habit in my travels to take the corner workers out for parade laps if allowed. Even if they don't have a car they are just as enthusiastic as I am about this great sport. Maybe it's this slight closeness with mortality that brings us closer together but I know everytime I see an event like this or even have a near miss I feel closer to the men and women that share this great adventure with us. Rest in peace Richard Reins I never met you but have no doubt I would have liked you if I did
10-20-2018, 02:59 PM
#238
Yesterday Vintage Motorsports released their electronic newsletter with a brief write-up about this tragic incident, mentioning CFRA’s donation drive for Edward Richard Reins who lost his life trying to protect the drivers on track.
From the President of CFRA, "This is our opportunity to not only show his family but the entire flagging community that we care about them. If it was not for what they do, our sport would not exist. Just try a few laps at speed with no flaggers and 30 others cars, and you’ll understand how important they are.”
I just received a note from our accounting person and we have received 71 donations from people outside of our club. For those of you who reached out to me about donating, we would like to thank you all for your heartfelt generosity and human kindness.
Our donation drive will continue through Sunday. On Monday we will make sure that the money is quickly moved to the family. We will work that through WeatherTech Laguna Seca and SCRAMP.
If you would like to donate you can do so at the links below:
http://www.cfra.net/web/info/ls_corn..._donation.html
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...=ALAKEFGGEWPR4
Once again thank you for your support.
Sincerely,
VID997
From the President of CFRA, "This is our opportunity to not only show his family but the entire flagging community that we care about them. If it was not for what they do, our sport would not exist. Just try a few laps at speed with no flaggers and 30 others cars, and you’ll understand how important they are.”
I just received a note from our accounting person and we have received 71 donations from people outside of our club. For those of you who reached out to me about donating, we would like to thank you all for your heartfelt generosity and human kindness.
Our donation drive will continue through Sunday. On Monday we will make sure that the money is quickly moved to the family. We will work that through WeatherTech Laguna Seca and SCRAMP.
If you would like to donate you can do so at the links below:
http://www.cfra.net/web/info/ls_corn..._donation.html
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/websc...=ALAKEFGGEWPR4
Once again thank you for your support.
Sincerely,
VID997
Hello Vid997,
My sincere and deep thanks to have setup this support.
Very best,
10-20-2018, 06:49 PM
#240
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