How are your DE groups organized?
09-27-2018, 11:41 AM
#31
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Glad it worked out for you guys...
09-27-2018, 11:49 AM
#32
FWIW - Not all instructors are great (or even good) drivers. Always problems in the instructor group. I never agreed with keeping advanced (and talented) drivers out of the top run group simply because he/she did not feel compelled to instruct (risk life and limb with) beginning drivers.
09-27-2018, 11:56 AM
#33
FWIW - Not all instructors are great (or even good) drivers. Always problems in the instructor group. I never agreed with keeping advanced (and talented) drivers out of the top run group simply because he/she did not feel compelled to instruct (risk life and limb with) beginning drivers.
I just don't understand why they have different rules. As you say... some people might never want to be instructors. It doesn't mean they're not highly skilled drivers.
Incidentally, the instructors are also allowed to run in any other group they want to, and they do.
09-27-2018, 12:00 PM
#34
For me, that's the key, Peter--in the end it's the drivers out on track that are responsible for what's going on, especially as you move away from a formal DE setting and towards a less-structured (though still with rules, such as giving point-bys in the direction of the upcoming turn for consistency/predictability) event such as the open track day I did with Trackmasters at WGI y-day. There, you DO have cars with vastly different capabilities on track at the same time and it's imperative the everybody's on the same page in such a setting.
Though y-day's pouring rain did level the playing field a bit for the Minis
Gary
Though y-day's pouring rain did level the playing field a bit for the Minis
Gary
09-27-2018, 04:17 PM
#35
Burning Brakes
Do you think the track makes a difference?
I mean, Mosport is a big, serious track and maybe UCR is more concerned about safety than a group running a more "forgiving" track
I mean, Mosport is a big, serious track and maybe UCR is more concerned about safety than a group running a more "forgiving" track
09-27-2018, 05:06 PM
#36
Another thing I find funny is the notion of "advanced" DEs where they let in people in intermediate. Not only does the intermediate driver go to more passing zones, because intermediate run groups typically have very restricted passing zones, to open pass anywhere style.
I personally loved the pass anywhere with point by rules at my last advanced DE and it will be funny to go back to "you can only pass in these 2-3 areas of the track because you are not in the red run group" rules.
09-27-2018, 05:12 PM
#37
With Niagara PCA they split the advanced into "Solo - Stock" and "Solo-Track Prep" with the expectation that the "Solo-Track Prep" is essentially a race prepped vehicle driven by a very experienced driver in that car (R-comp tires or better, Race seats / harnesses, roll bar / cage, Hans or similar restraint, was "High Horsepower" run group previously).
With CHIN, their Red group expects passing to occur "unimpeded". And while it doesn't always happen, they do their best to enforce it and remind drivers of it in that group.
I personally drive a Corvette that is a NASA TT1 race car. When I am doing DE, in addition to following whatever rules are stated, I follow these rules/guidelines for myself:
1) I don't own the track, no matter how fast/quick I am. Everyone has a right to be there.
2) I don't bully and I never get upset. If someone doesn't see me or doesn't give me a point by then no big deal. I will back off, work on off-line drills or just drive through the hot pits. It is my responsibility to stay calm and the choices the I make will determine both the outcome and my happiness, no matter what another driver is doing or not doing. If they are being unsafe then I will pit in and talk to the black flag station or an official, otherwise my responsibility is to remain calm and enjoy myself while being safe and courteous.
3) I am hyper aware in advanced groups and give point-bys WELL in advance. The second I see another car behind me, no matter how far away, I give a point-by. If they don't catch me by the next corner I give another point by. One of my goals is to never, ever impede.
My experience (and I am at the track about every 2 weeks either instructing or racing) is that most drivers follow these rules and I rarely have an issue, even with the lower horsepower cars. Take a guy like Gary, in his Mini. He points me by so far in advance that I wonder if he has a GPS locator on my car and knows my position at all times. A pleasure to drive with and be with on track. He knows my and others position, closing speed and intentions...always. And there are plenty of guys like this who are safe, courteous and very skilled drivers.
With CHIN, their Red group expects passing to occur "unimpeded". And while it doesn't always happen, they do their best to enforce it and remind drivers of it in that group.
I personally drive a Corvette that is a NASA TT1 race car. When I am doing DE, in addition to following whatever rules are stated, I follow these rules/guidelines for myself:
1) I don't own the track, no matter how fast/quick I am. Everyone has a right to be there.
2) I don't bully and I never get upset. If someone doesn't see me or doesn't give me a point by then no big deal. I will back off, work on off-line drills or just drive through the hot pits. It is my responsibility to stay calm and the choices the I make will determine both the outcome and my happiness, no matter what another driver is doing or not doing. If they are being unsafe then I will pit in and talk to the black flag station or an official, otherwise my responsibility is to remain calm and enjoy myself while being safe and courteous.
3) I am hyper aware in advanced groups and give point-bys WELL in advance. The second I see another car behind me, no matter how far away, I give a point-by. If they don't catch me by the next corner I give another point by. One of my goals is to never, ever impede.
My experience (and I am at the track about every 2 weeks either instructing or racing) is that most drivers follow these rules and I rarely have an issue, even with the lower horsepower cars. Take a guy like Gary, in his Mini. He points me by so far in advance that I wonder if he has a GPS locator on my car and knows my position at all times. A pleasure to drive with and be with on track. He knows my and others position, closing speed and intentions...always. And there are plenty of guys like this who are safe, courteous and very skilled drivers.
09-27-2018, 05:25 PM
#38
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Are you implying that instructor = better driver? I would argue in many instances this is not the case. There are a lot of people in the advanced run group that are bona fide racers and are there to have fun, test and tune their car for a race, and a myriad of other reasons. Often those people are quite a bit more skilled than instructors. My club has started to move faster advanced run group drivers into the instructor group and the slower instructor group drivers into the advanced run groups. This makes a lot of sense to me as they are starting to group people based on pace and perceived skill level.
Another thing I find funny is the notion of "advanced" DEs where they let in people in intermediate. Not only does the intermediate driver go to more passing zones, because intermediate run groups typically have very restricted passing zones, to open pass anywhere style.
I personally loved the pass anywhere with point by rules at my last advanced DE and it will be funny to go back to "you can only pass in these 2-3 areas of the track because you are not in the red run group" rules.
Another thing I find funny is the notion of "advanced" DEs where they let in people in intermediate. Not only does the intermediate driver go to more passing zones, because intermediate run groups typically have very restricted passing zones, to open pass anywhere style.
I personally loved the pass anywhere with point by rules at my last advanced DE and it will be funny to go back to "you can only pass in these 2-3 areas of the track because you are not in the red run group" rules.
My real point was that I hope some thought went into the decision beyond "this is more convenient". It's along the lines of when I was asked to instruct by another region, when I was still in white, with zero instructor training, because they needed someone, and I am a club racer. Does being a good driver mean you are automatically a good instructor?
Too many groups do what is easy, or avoids bruised egos, or attracts drivers, instead of what is right.
09-27-2018, 05:27 PM
#39
Racer
My thoughts on passing: All groups up to the Instructor level, which has Expanded Passing, have the same passing zones. Make it simple folks. Simpler for the entrants and simpler for the instructors. How can I promote a Beginner Group entrant to Intermediate, if I had not seen how he behaves in all passing zones. The rule of the game is to minimize the frustration level. The Novice and Beginner students have instructors in the car to observe and teach good judgement in the passing zones. The hardest group to drive in is the lower groups because of the large HP and Comfort Zone differences. We should teach all students to drive in their comfort zone..the goal at the end of the day is have "stretched" that comfort zone..Each time you drive you want to become better by stretching your comfort zone..
my 2 cents
Pete
my 2 cents
Pete
09-27-2018, 05:35 PM
#40
With Niagara PCA they split the advanced into "Solo - Stock" and "Solo-Track Prep" with the expectation that the "Solo-Track Prep" is essentially a race prepped vehicle driven by a very experienced driver in that car (R-comp tires or better, Race seats / harnesses, roll bar / cage, Hans or similar restraint, was "High Horsepower" run group previously).
With CHIN, their Red group expects passing to occur "unimpeded". And while it doesn't always happen, they do their best to enforce it and remind drivers of it in that group.
I personally drive a Corvette that is a NASA TT1 race car. When I am doing DE, in addition to following whatever rules are stated, I follow these rules/guidelines for myself:
1) I don't own the track, no matter how fast/quick I am. Everyone has a right to be there.
2) I don't bully and I never get upset. If someone doesn't see me or doesn't give me a point by then no big deal. I will back off, work on off-line drills or just drive through the hot pits. It is my responsibility to stay calm and the choices the I make will determine both the outcome and my happiness, no matter what another driver is doing or not doing. If they are being unsafe then I will pit in and talk to the black flag station or an official, otherwise my responsibility is to remain calm and enjoy myself while being safe and courteous.
3) I am hyper aware in advanced groups and give point-bys WELL in advance. The second I see another car behind me, no matter how far away, I give a point-by. If they don't catch me by the next corner I give another point by. One of my goals is to never, ever impede.
My experience (and I am at the track about every 2 weeks either instructing or racing) is that most drivers follow these rules and I rarely have an issue, even with the lower horsepower cars. Take a guy like Gary, in his Mini. He points me by so far in advance that I wonder if he has a GPS locator on my car and knows my position at all times. A pleasure to drive with and be with on track. He knows my and others position, closing speed and intentions...always. And there are plenty of guys like this who are safe, courteous and very skilled drivers.
With CHIN, their Red group expects passing to occur "unimpeded". And while it doesn't always happen, they do their best to enforce it and remind drivers of it in that group.
I personally drive a Corvette that is a NASA TT1 race car. When I am doing DE, in addition to following whatever rules are stated, I follow these rules/guidelines for myself:
1) I don't own the track, no matter how fast/quick I am. Everyone has a right to be there.
2) I don't bully and I never get upset. If someone doesn't see me or doesn't give me a point by then no big deal. I will back off, work on off-line drills or just drive through the hot pits. It is my responsibility to stay calm and the choices the I make will determine both the outcome and my happiness, no matter what another driver is doing or not doing. If they are being unsafe then I will pit in and talk to the black flag station or an official, otherwise my responsibility is to remain calm and enjoy myself while being safe and courteous.
3) I am hyper aware in advanced groups and give point-bys WELL in advance. The second I see another car behind me, no matter how far away, I give a point-by. If they don't catch me by the next corner I give another point by. One of my goals is to never, ever impede.
My experience (and I am at the track about every 2 weeks either instructing or racing) is that most drivers follow these rules and I rarely have an issue, even with the lower horsepower cars. Take a guy like Gary, in his Mini. He points me by so far in advance that I wonder if he has a GPS locator on my car and knows my position at all times. A pleasure to drive with and be with on track. He knows my and others position, closing speed and intentions...always. And there are plenty of guys like this who are safe, courteous and very skilled drivers.
), nobody from Penske or F1 scouting drivers, etc. If anyone thinks it's anything more than that, they're delusional. I also think the group you're running with has much to do with having a successful and enjoyable event; y-day at the Glen the Mini had a field day in the pouring rain and there was nothing but positive reinforcement and great conversation from everybody, whether they chose to drive in those conditions or not. Just a great day.And seriously, with that car and, more importantly, with your driving skills, I can't see you having to point anybody by!
Hope to see you at the track again soon and thanks for the kind words.
Gary
09-27-2018, 05:44 PM
#41
Hey Anthony, great to hear from you again and great post. Your philosophy mirrors mine very closely; if it's a DE or track day, it's just that and nothing more. As they say at the driver's meetings, no trophies (except getting your car home in one piece ), nobody from Penske or F1 scouting drivers, etc. If anyone thinks it's anything more than that, they're delusional.
And seriously, with that car and, more importantly, with your driving skills, I can't see you having to point anybody by!
Hope to see you at the track again soon and thanks for the kind words.
Gary
), nobody from Penske or F1 scouting drivers, etc. If anyone thinks it's anything more than that, they're delusional.And seriously, with that car and, more importantly, with your driving skills, I can't see you having to point anybody by!
Hope to see you at the track again soon and thanks for the kind words.
Gary
09-27-2018, 05:49 PM
#42
Best of luck TTing--get that golden lap!
Gary
09-27-2018, 07:16 PM
#43
Originally Posted by Mordeth
With Niagara PCA they split the advanced into "Solo - Stock" and "Solo-Track Prep" with the expectation that the "Solo-Track Prep" is essentially a race prepped vehicle driven by a very experienced driver in that car (R-comp tires or better, Race seats / harnesses, roll bar / cage, Hans or similar restraint, was "High Horsepower" run group previously).
With CHIN, their Red group expects passing to occur "unimpeded". And while it doesn't always happen, they do their best to enforce it and remind drivers of it in that group.
I personally drive a Corvette that is a NASA TT1 race car. When I am doing DE, in addition to following whatever rules are stated, I follow these rules/guidelines for myself:
1) I don't own the track, no matter how fast/quick I am. Everyone has a right to be there.
2) I don't bully and I never get upset. If someone doesn't see me or doesn't give me a point by then no big deal. I will back off, work on off-line drills or just drive through the hot pits. It is my responsibility to stay calm and the choices the I make will determine both the outcome and my happiness, no matter what another driver is doing or not doing. If they are being unsafe then I will pit in and talk to the black flag station or an official, otherwise my responsibility is to remain calm and enjoy myself while being safe and courteous.
3) I am hyper aware in advanced groups and give point-bys WELL in advance. The second I see another car behind me, no matter how far away, I give a point-by. If they don't catch me by the next corner I give another point by. One of my goals is to never, ever impede.
My experience (and I am at the track about every 2 weeks either instructing or racing) is that most drivers follow these rules and I rarely have an issue, even with the lower horsepower cars. Take a guy like Gary, in his Mini. He points me by so far in advance that I wonder if he has a GPS locator on my car and knows my position at all times. A pleasure to drive with and be with on track. He knows my and others position, closing speed and intentions...always. And there are plenty of guys like this who are safe, courteous and very skilled drivers.
With CHIN, their Red group expects passing to occur "unimpeded". And while it doesn't always happen, they do their best to enforce it and remind drivers of it in that group.
I personally drive a Corvette that is a NASA TT1 race car. When I am doing DE, in addition to following whatever rules are stated, I follow these rules/guidelines for myself:
1) I don't own the track, no matter how fast/quick I am. Everyone has a right to be there.
2) I don't bully and I never get upset. If someone doesn't see me or doesn't give me a point by then no big deal. I will back off, work on off-line drills or just drive through the hot pits. It is my responsibility to stay calm and the choices the I make will determine both the outcome and my happiness, no matter what another driver is doing or not doing. If they are being unsafe then I will pit in and talk to the black flag station or an official, otherwise my responsibility is to remain calm and enjoy myself while being safe and courteous.
3) I am hyper aware in advanced groups and give point-bys WELL in advance. The second I see another car behind me, no matter how far away, I give a point-by. If they don't catch me by the next corner I give another point by. One of my goals is to never, ever impede.
My experience (and I am at the track about every 2 weeks either instructing or racing) is that most drivers follow these rules and I rarely have an issue, even with the lower horsepower cars. Take a guy like Gary, in his Mini. He points me by so far in advance that I wonder if he has a GPS locator on my car and knows my position at all times. A pleasure to drive with and be with on track. He knows my and others position, closing speed and intentions...always. And there are plenty of guys like this who are safe, courteous and very skilled drivers.
09-27-2018, 07:17 PM
#44
Originally Posted by Mordeth
Heya Gary. I'm actually on the way to the Glen right now and will be there for the next 5 days. NASA TT and then instructing with PCA Niagara Monday and Tuesday. You going?
Denis
09-27-2018, 07:19 PM
#45
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Words I live by.