How are your DE groups organized?
09-26-2018, 10:37 AM
#16
Oh... there's no way in hell I think an intermediate group of any sort should have open passing. Not at Mosport anyway. 
Combining Green and Yellow for UCR doesn't make any sense in that the only difference between the two is the people in them. They have exactly the same rules.
For us, if you were going to combine groups, the best would be to combine Yellow and White and to combine Black and Red and then re-split based on speeds.
Combining Green and Yellow for UCR doesn't make any sense in that the only difference between the two is the people in them. They have exactly the same rules.
For us, if you were going to combine groups, the best would be to combine Yellow and White and to combine Black and Red and then re-split based on speeds.
09-26-2018, 11:01 AM
#17
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I run with two groups here in AZ.
1) NASA has its well known DE1-4 groups with DE4 being open passing. The groups are closely monitored by leaders, you have download sessions after each session, and you have to be promoted by the leader to get to the next group. I think this system works well for many drivers
2) Another group I run with is called ProAuto Sports. They are very laid back. There's just 3 run groups. Red is novice, passing with a point by on straights. Orange is advanced with open passing. Green is advanced with open passing. They give you recommended lap times for the Orange and Green groups, with Green being the faster of the two groups. There are no download sessions, no group leaders, point bys are not required but suggested (in Orange and Green), you can request to move to any other group at any time. This club does have some very experienced marshals behind the scenes that are watching all the time, and they will talk to you if you're being unsafe on the track.
You might think that NASA is the "safer" of the two clubs but statistically they're about the same. I do think because ProAuto doesn't babysit you like other groups, you can progress a little quicker actually. I like running with both groups and each has their own merits.
Side note. My son does kart racing. He is 12 years old. They start as young as 5 years old at the track. The don't have instructors, they have open passing (races), they don't do point bys. They bump each other "accidently" sometimes and make each other spin out, yet the kids treat each other with respect and always shake hands afterwards. I know its not an apples to apples comparison, but it does make you wonder why us grown men have issues sometimes at DE's.
1) NASA has its well known DE1-4 groups with DE4 being open passing. The groups are closely monitored by leaders, you have download sessions after each session, and you have to be promoted by the leader to get to the next group. I think this system works well for many drivers
2) Another group I run with is called ProAuto Sports. They are very laid back. There's just 3 run groups. Red is novice, passing with a point by on straights. Orange is advanced with open passing. Green is advanced with open passing. They give you recommended lap times for the Orange and Green groups, with Green being the faster of the two groups. There are no download sessions, no group leaders, point bys are not required but suggested (in Orange and Green), you can request to move to any other group at any time. This club does have some very experienced marshals behind the scenes that are watching all the time, and they will talk to you if you're being unsafe on the track.
You might think that NASA is the "safer" of the two clubs but statistically they're about the same. I do think because ProAuto doesn't babysit you like other groups, you can progress a little quicker actually. I like running with both groups and each has their own merits.
Side note. My son does kart racing. He is 12 years old. They start as young as 5 years old at the track. The don't have instructors, they have open passing (races), they don't do point bys. They bump each other "accidently" sometimes and make each other spin out, yet the kids treat each other with respect and always shake hands afterwards. I know its not an apples to apples comparison, but it does make you wonder why us grown men have issues sometimes at DE's.
09-26-2018, 11:22 AM
#18
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Kevin, 100% in agreement that something needs to be done with our PCA UCR chapter run groups. We have a very active chapter, often with 200 cars registered for a DE weekend - many of whom run in the white, black and red groups.
Black run group (advanced) has some crazy speed differentials out on the track. We have full blown race cars and 991 GT3RS's running Pirelli DH slicks on track with basically stock 944's and everything in between. There are WAY too many cars out there on track in the black group, and the closing speed differentials almost cause (or do cause) accidents every weekend. Of Mosport's 10 corners, 8 of them are blind entries where you cannot see the track out when you enter the corner. A 991 GT3RS on full slicks coming in hot over corner 4 down the hill into corner 5 at 200 km/h+ only to find a gaggle of 944's putting along at the bottom of the hill heading into 5. With nowhere to go but a wall on the right - with physics doing everything in its power to put you in it, even on a clear lap. Scary.
I've often thought that it would make sense to merge green and yellow into a single instructed group (they are the least densely populated). Leave white as is - intermediate solo. Merge black and red run groups and allow open passing with a point by, but separate into two run groups - fast and faster. This would allow the 944's, 968's and other skilled drivers with slower cars, or street prepped cars, to run in a group with less speed differential. Then put the higher HP cars running at much faster speeds out together. BMW Trillium splits their advanced solo group into fast & faster, and it's awesome. Way more track awareness, point bys are given well before closing, and great flow with virtually no problems caused by massive speed differentials. I was really impressed with the Trillium advanced solo day I went to.
But that will never happen. Because PCA UCR is a social club full of big egos, and there would be a lot of butt hurt people that aren't put into the 'faster' group.
Black run group (advanced) has some crazy speed differentials out on the track. We have full blown race cars and 991 GT3RS's running Pirelli DH slicks on track with basically stock 944's and everything in between. There are WAY too many cars out there on track in the black group, and the closing speed differentials almost cause (or do cause) accidents every weekend. Of Mosport's 10 corners, 8 of them are blind entries where you cannot see the track out when you enter the corner. A 991 GT3RS on full slicks coming in hot over corner 4 down the hill into corner 5 at 200 km/h+ only to find a gaggle of 944's putting along at the bottom of the hill heading into 5. With nowhere to go but a wall on the right - with physics doing everything in its power to put you in it, even on a clear lap. Scary.
I've often thought that it would make sense to merge green and yellow into a single instructed group (they are the least densely populated). Leave white as is - intermediate solo. Merge black and red run groups and allow open passing with a point by, but separate into two run groups - fast and faster. This would allow the 944's, 968's and other skilled drivers with slower cars, or street prepped cars, to run in a group with less speed differential. Then put the higher HP cars running at much faster speeds out together. BMW Trillium splits their advanced solo group into fast & faster, and it's awesome. Way more track awareness, point bys are given well before closing, and great flow with virtually no problems caused by massive speed differentials. I was really impressed with the Trillium advanced solo day I went to.
But that will never happen. Because PCA UCR is a social club full of big egos, and there would be a lot of butt hurt people that aren't put into the 'faster' group.
I run in the instructor run group with CVR and there are some very fast drivers. A couple of times a year I take my 944, instead of my Cayman, just to have fun and I normally "demote" myself, especially if it is a track such as Lime Rock where the faster cars would be catching me every few laps. They are running in the 56s and I am trundling along doing 1:01s!
Running a slower car every one in a while also gives you a different perspective. Are the drivers in Cup cars doing 56s better drivers than someone in a vintage 911? Maybe that 911 is running record times for that slower car but in comparison they just look like a road block.
For me, once I started racing I enjoyed DEs more because I was only there to have fun.
Egos and butt hurt have no place at DEs and more regions need to make decisions based on skill rather than friendship, speed and longevity.
09-26-2018, 02:27 PM
#19
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Just to clarify, Expanded Passing may not take place in the advanced run group, only the Instructor group, which may include non-instructors in those group(s).
Aaron
Aaron
09-26-2018, 04:45 PM
#20
Interesting! I'm not aware that our region allows non-instructors in the instructor group.
09-26-2018, 07:29 PM
#21
As for passing: the Advanced group was allowed ‘open’ passing but only on the left and only with a point by.
Bish
09-26-2018, 09:14 PM
#22
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At my last PCA event my son was also driving the car. In order to not have the car run in back-to-back run groups, I was told I could run in the Instructors Group to give the car an additional 25 minutes to cool down between runs. Luckily my son was immediately upgraded to the ‘Upper’ Intermediate group after his first run with his instructor so it became a moot point and I was able to stay in the Advanced group.
As for passing: the Advanced group was allowed ‘open’ passing but only on the left and only with a point by.
Bish
09-26-2018, 10:41 PM
#23
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[QUOTE=Difool;15318085]
Difool
I think it works well to separate green, novices, from yellow, beginners, just because the speeds can be so different with people that are out on the track for the first few times in their life. This is done most places, but can be challenging in situations where there are very few inexperienced drivers.
^This
Quadcammer
green and yellow are basically in the same boat unless you have a real problem with trains. White should be allowed to do their own thing but I don't think open passing is a good idea. combine red and black is great, but adding the speed separation is a good plan for safety.
^Disagree with this
I have a mild prepared street 996. Much more car than I am capable of ringing out.
I recently advanced to Yellow group from a couple years to Green group.
The difference from when I started in Green the first year, then progressing to second year. It was like this, I went from the guy causing the trains to (safety & smoothly) lapping every other car in the green group in my second year.
In my last DE at WGI, there were more than a few very fast cars in yellow group, cars that could close on me faster than I ever thought possible. In fact the first day of the event I was asking my instructor why is the flagger flagging me to point by, when the car behind was barely visible in my mirrors.
Well I learned quickly, those cars can close much faster in the Yellow group.
If this would have been the case when I first started DE, the intimidation factor may have been too much to over come. Just being honest.
My lap times dropped 30+ seconds/lap first year to second year. Now that I am in yellow, my lap times have dropped by an additional 20-25 seconds/lap.
In the solo/advanced run groups, I don't think there is that much disparaging lap times, but in the instructed run groups there certainly is.
I don't want to come across as know it all on this subject, but to the instructed drivers, there is a LARGE difference from Green to Yellow.
I think it works well to separate green, novices, from yellow, beginners, just because the speeds can be so different with people that are out on the track for the first few times in their life. This is done most places, but can be challenging in situations where there are very few inexperienced drivers.
^This
Quadcammer
green and yellow are basically in the same boat unless you have a real problem with trains. White should be allowed to do their own thing but I don't think open passing is a good idea. combine red and black is great, but adding the speed separation is a good plan for safety.
^Disagree with this
I have a mild prepared street 996. Much more car than I am capable of ringing out.
I recently advanced to Yellow group from a couple years to Green group.
The difference from when I started in Green the first year, then progressing to second year. It was like this, I went from the guy causing the trains to (safety & smoothly) lapping every other car in the green group in my second year.
In my last DE at WGI, there were more than a few very fast cars in yellow group, cars that could close on me faster than I ever thought possible. In fact the first day of the event I was asking my instructor why is the flagger flagging me to point by, when the car behind was barely visible in my mirrors.
Well I learned quickly, those cars can close much faster in the Yellow group.
If this would have been the case when I first started DE, the intimidation factor may have been too much to over come. Just being honest.
My lap times dropped 30+ seconds/lap first year to second year. Now that I am in yellow, my lap times have dropped by an additional 20-25 seconds/lap.
In the solo/advanced run groups, I don't think there is that much disparaging lap times, but in the instructed run groups there certainly is.
I don't want to come across as know it all on this subject, but to the instructed drivers, there is a LARGE difference from Green to Yellow.
09-27-2018, 08:59 AM
#24
Other than obviously needing a signal to pass, I take issue with any sort of passing rules. I'm definitely never going to win this one as whenever I try to voice my opinion on the subject I'm shut down immediately and seem to be looked at as a hooligan, but here's my reasoning on this.
It's fine to have a "recommended" method to give passes. Drivers shouldn't need to make decisions about which side to give passed on. Especially newer drivers. They need to be told which side they're expected to give the pass to so they have something to start with. That said though, they should also be told that they're welcome to give passes on whichever side they want to if they're comfortable with it.
The passing driver passes on the side they're given, no matter what. Obviously.
Whenever I suggest this, I'm shut down immediately. "No! You send the passing car to the side that will have them entering the turn on the inside, off line. Lead car giving the pass stays on line."
Thing is... years ago when I was still in the Green (beginner) group, I had a session that would set the tone for everything I've done in DE since then. I'll never forget it and I can't thank the two instructors involved enough for making it happen. It was the moment when DE changed from a rigorous system of learning to drive the track faster to knowing that sometimes you can just go out there and have fun on the track. That was a game changer!
Our PCA DE's are on weekends and span Saturday and Sunday. 4 sessions each day. A friend and I were both driving reasonably well and ready to be promoted to the Yellow group. We happened to get paired up with a couple of instructors that were also friends with each other. My friend was promoted either Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning. I can't remember which. I was told I'd be promoted at the end of the weekend as my instructor had to leave after the last Green session on Sunday. The Yellow session was later.
Before the last session on Sunday, our instructors talked to each other. Mine asked my friend's to take him back to the Green group for the last session so we could go out and have some fun.
It's worth noting that I had been the fastest car in the Green group all weekend. I didn't give a single pass.
The instructors told us that we'd be passing each other at every passing zone. There were three on the track.
For me, this meant slowing my pace to I wouldn't just drive away from my friend and both of us knowing exactly where the other was at all times during the session. That sounds simple enough, but things still weren't as simple as they seemed. Not only were we swapping positions at every single passing zone, but my friend was randomly sending me on either side each time and we were swapping spots TWICE on the back stretch. I didn't realize it but his instructor was doing it on purpose to give us an experience of something different and it was one of the best sessions I've ever had.
Knowing we were going to swap, I'd come out of a turn and set myself up to pass only to get sent by on the opposite side. I was completely surprised after letting him by on the back straight and then seeing his arm out to send me right back by him.
The icing on the cake happened on one of the last laps when I gave a pass and knew my friend wasn't going to make it by before the turn. I was already off the throttle and started to get on the brakes when my instructor piped up with "What are you doing?? Don't brake!!".
"But he's not gonna make it... " I said.
My friend gave it all he had and we went into the turn side-by-side. We were almost certainly side-by-side by the apex and my instructor was certain we'd get black-flagged for it. We should have, but we didn't.
Afterward, both my friend and I and our two instructors had a good laugh about that and we were giggling with excitement over the whole session. It was a TON OF FUN.
The rest of the group must have been utterly baffled watching us go at it, but it was all completely safe and controlled.
Our instructors had enough faith in us to try something different and teach us that there's more to driving on the track than just following the line we're taught and the rigid rules about when and how to pass.
Ever since then I've made a point of playing around with friends on the track and it's made DE far better than just following the line like an automaton. I don't mess around with people I don't know, but with my friends I'll often give them late passes or send them off line or give back passes immediately after going by them. After the first one or two and a "what the hell was that??" conversation in the paddock afterwards, they'll start doing the same back to me.
I know this is a long story in a thread about DE group organization... but the point is that if people have it drilled into them that you can only do things one way and if any suggestion of trying something different it shut down as though I were some sort of dissident, how will people ever realize that they can have fun out there? Especially when they can't just drive fast because of all the traffic?
09-27-2018, 09:49 AM
#25
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At my last PCA event my son was also driving the car. In order to not have the car run in back-to-back run groups, I was told I could run in the Instructors Group to give the car an additional 25 minutes to cool down between runs. Luckily my son was immediately upgraded to the ‘Upper’ Intermediate group after his first run with his instructor so it became a moot point and I was able to stay in the Advanced group.
As for passing: the Advanced group was allowed ‘open’ passing but only on the left and only with a point by.
Bish
09-27-2018, 10:05 AM
#26
I've been running in these events and it's been a revelation; very enjoyable, and great flow with the expanded passing.Gary
Last edited by gbuff; 09-27-2018 at 10:26 AM.
09-27-2018, 10:22 AM
#27
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Starting to see more and more of this--MOR did it at Mid-O recently (I think they used orange and purple!) and Niagara and GVCBMW do also, all with the option of mixing groups later in the day if the "culture" of the group you're in is respected i.e. if you're in a low-hp car (like me) in a high-hp group, limber up your left arm I've been running in these groups and it's been a revelation; very enjoyable, and great flow with the expanded passing.
Gary
I've been running in these groups and it's been a revelation; very enjoyable, and great flow with the expanded passing.Gary
NRPCA does the same thing.
Niagara's advanced event at The Glen is just that. They call it something different, but it's pretty much 2 run groups. Fast and Faster, and they divided it up by horsepower to start IIRC.
I absolutely loved the format, and once the "culture" is established (as you put it), then there was some mixing of the 2 run groups. Could not have worked out better.
Probably the best format I have ever run at a DE, and the overall culture and penchant for "teaching and learning" in that region is really at the top of list of regions to begin with.
Hope to see more of this format from the other regions I run with, including my own.
Makes much more sense to divide an advanced DE into run groups based on HP and not run group color, as long as it is at an advanced event. Levels the playing field so to speak.
09-27-2018, 11:15 AM
#28
Is there anyone here with any influence in UCR?
There's some solid information here about what people think works well in other regions. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll work well for UCR but someone other than me needs to be part of that conversation.
There's some solid information here about what people think works well in other regions. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll work well for UCR but someone other than me needs to be part of that conversation.
09-27-2018, 11:38 AM
#29
KC PCA at Heartland Park Topeka, Sept 8-9.
I didn’t mention this before but I’ve been doing HPDEs since 1995. I’ve also been asked to consider becoming an Instructor, so maybe that entered into the decision making process.
09-27-2018, 11:40 AM
#30
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Some great stuff in this thread! As someone widely traveled, it’s always surprising the lack of uniformity in classifications, run group privileges and passing rules.
Sounds good. Well thought out.
Having experience (and remembering WAY back when, when “pass anywhere with a point” caused MANY heart attacks and exclamations that the sky was falling) watching the evolution of excellent programs like Potomac, NNJR, Niagara and CVR, to name a few, and watching these programs base sign-offs on DEMONSTRATED good skill, judgment and awareness, it’s clear that the progressive bent of these groups (educationally) really improves the experience.
Have seen this in a variety of organizations. Works well. Encourages a wider variety of machinery when the driver is comfortable in the group, whether they say so or not...
Bingo! Great program.
Agreed. Great post.
Awesome, and it relies on the participants good sense.
Fancy that...
Great thread!
For any UCR members, this is my suggestion for changing it. By all means tear it apart and show me the error of my thinking.
Leave Green as it is, obviously.
Give Yellow the extra passing zones between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3. Have the instructors teach the students in Yellow how to give pass signals after the apex and how to let by multiple cars in a passing zone.
Leave White as it is. Students now know how to use those zones and should give good pass signals on their own.
Give Black open passing like the Red group. It seems odd that people who aren’t interested in being instructors aren’t given the same track experience the instructors have.
Leave Green as it is, obviously.
Give Yellow the extra passing zones between 1 and 2 and between 2 and 3. Have the instructors teach the students in Yellow how to give pass signals after the apex and how to let by multiple cars in a passing zone.
Leave White as it is. Students now know how to use those zones and should give good pass signals on their own.
Give Black open passing like the Red group. It seems odd that people who aren’t interested in being instructors aren’t given the same track experience the instructors have.
Minor correction there, white (int) and black (adv) are solo, blue is instructed intermediate in NNJR (correct me if I'm wrong). I believe black and red are almost always expanded passing; green and yellow run together or separate depending on logistics; blue/white usually combined, black and red sometimes combined sunday afternoons. Some black drivers are instructors and some red drivers aren't, and black vs red has some pace differential. Yellow and up usually have reasonable passing zones, nothing too restrictive.
I really like the NNJR way of instruction all the way up to blue, where people can still get signed off at each event if instructor is comfortable with the student's level, green or yellow or blue. So instructed students can get some valuable solo time early on, and still get a chance to go back to instruction and tie things back up, I think it allows a bit more growth/progress.
I really like the NNJR way of instruction all the way up to blue, where people can still get signed off at each event if instructor is comfortable with the student's level, green or yellow or blue. So instructed students can get some valuable solo time early on, and still get a chance to go back to instruction and tie things back up, I think it allows a bit more growth/progress.
At Potomac we run similar to what is described for NNJR, with a little twist at the top (advanced).
Green: Beginner (Instructed) with simple passing on long straights
Blue: Intermediate Instructed with 1 or 2 more passing zones
White: Intermediate Solo with 1 or 2 additional passing zones
Black: Advanced Solo with open passing anywhere on the track (with a point by)
Red: ???? (not sure what this is called) Advanced Solo with open passing anywhere on the track (with a point by)
However there is a difference in Black and Red. The Black group can hold off on a point by until they are comfortable (like waiting to get through a corner) while the Red group is more of an anticipated point by, meaning they should see you coming, plan the pass, move to a side, and give the point such that the passing car never lost their momentum. So to get from Black to Red you have to demonstrate exceptional situational awareness, be able to go offline any time (to set up the pass), and be comfortable with tight side by side driving in the corners.
Green: Beginner (Instructed) with simple passing on long straights
Blue: Intermediate Instructed with 1 or 2 more passing zones
White: Intermediate Solo with 1 or 2 additional passing zones
Black: Advanced Solo with open passing anywhere on the track (with a point by)
Red: ???? (not sure what this is called) Advanced Solo with open passing anywhere on the track (with a point by)
However there is a difference in Black and Red. The Black group can hold off on a point by until they are comfortable (like waiting to get through a corner) while the Red group is more of an anticipated point by, meaning they should see you coming, plan the pass, move to a side, and give the point such that the passing car never lost their momentum. So to get from Black to Red you have to demonstrate exceptional situational awareness, be able to go offline any time (to set up the pass), and be comfortable with tight side by side driving in the corners.
+1
I run in the instructor run group with CVR and there are some very fast drivers. A couple of times a year I take my 944, instead of my Cayman, just to have fun and I normally "demote" myself, especially if it is a track such as Lime Rock where the faster cars would be catching me every few laps. They are running in the 56s and I am trundling along doing 1:01s!
Running a slower car every one in a while also gives you a different perspective. Are the drivers in Cup cars doing 56s better drivers than someone in a vintage 911? Maybe that 911 is running record times for that slower car but in comparison they just look like a road block.
For me, once I started racing I enjoyed DEs more because I was only there to have fun.
Egos and butt hurt have no place at DEs and more regions need to make decisions based on skill rather than friendship, speed and longevity.
I run in the instructor run group with CVR and there are some very fast drivers. A couple of times a year I take my 944, instead of my Cayman, just to have fun and I normally "demote" myself, especially if it is a track such as Lime Rock where the faster cars would be catching me every few laps. They are running in the 56s and I am trundling along doing 1:01s!
Running a slower car every one in a while also gives you a different perspective. Are the drivers in Cup cars doing 56s better drivers than someone in a vintage 911? Maybe that 911 is running record times for that slower car but in comparison they just look like a road block.
For me, once I started racing I enjoyed DEs more because I was only there to have fun.
Egos and butt hurt have no place at DEs and more regions need to make decisions based on skill rather than friendship, speed and longevity.
Totally agree Gary and Glyndellis.
NRPCA does the same thing.
Niagara's advanced event at The Glen is just that. They call it something different, but it's pretty much 2 run groups. Fast and Faster, and they divided it up by horsepower to start IIRC.
I absolutely loved the format, and once the "culture" is established (as you put it), then there was some mixing of the 2 run groups. Could not have worked out better.
Probably the best format I have ever run at a DE, and the overall culture and penchant for "teaching and learning" in that region is really at the top of list of regions to begin with.
Hope to see more of this format from the other regions I run with, including my own.
Makes much more sense to divide an advanced DE into run groups based on HP and not run group color, as long as it is at an advanced event. Levels the playing field so to speak.
NRPCA does the same thing.
Niagara's advanced event at The Glen is just that. They call it something different, but it's pretty much 2 run groups. Fast and Faster, and they divided it up by horsepower to start IIRC.
I absolutely loved the format, and once the "culture" is established (as you put it), then there was some mixing of the 2 run groups. Could not have worked out better.
Probably the best format I have ever run at a DE, and the overall culture and penchant for "teaching and learning" in that region is really at the top of list of regions to begin with.
Hope to see more of this format from the other regions I run with, including my own.
Makes much more sense to divide an advanced DE into run groups based on HP and not run group color, as long as it is at an advanced event. Levels the playing field so to speak.
Fancy that...
Great thread!
