Nader Fotouhi

I do not mean any disrespect, but if the goal is to squeeze every last tenth, then perhaps it should not be done at DEs, but at racing or various pre-race T&T where the intent is to ride the car's limit/driver's ability.

Many of us struggle with your question depending on how easily we can silence the voice that says, there is little chance of something bad happening. I am a frequent DEer and occasional racer that is selling a race car, and likely going to a street registered DE car with role bar and no halo seat. The DEs have always been about the drink and BS at the end of the day and not setting up my fastest times, so cycled out Hoosiers or non-Hoosier tires have always worked fine. Most tracks have areas for developing skills, like turns like 6-7 at SP where you can work on pitching and catching the car at a relatively safe location, while you lift a little more at turn 9 to avoid drama.

In class room, I preach leaving a little extra room because the goal should be developing situational awareness and skills at DEs which always requires leaving something on the table. Again, no disrespect meant by my comments, but the RA thread (I understand it is not a DE) makes me hope that all of us have a different attitude at DEs. I realize it is hard given the types of cars that are driven at DEs today, but self discipline should be part of the fun factor as well.

Just my 0.02

Olemiss540

Recently went from a slow 240hp BMW with a half cage (bolted), Hans, Halo seats and 6point harnesses into a world challenge car with a full cage and could NOT believe how much less I worried and thought about the worst case scenario. Was MUCH easier to focus without the constant thought of losing brakes or dropping a wheel running through my mind. I may be sadistic, but I always had thoughts of broken bones or worse. No longer. I have full focus on the car and what it is telling me through each and every session.

I have never heard of someone upgrading their safety equipment too soon. Sadly the opposite is not true.

RickBetterley

If you can dedicate your car to track only and full-time trailering, add a cage.
If not, consider moderating your pace (I know, where's the fun in that?).
And even then, consider moving to a full on, caged, track car.
And make sure it's a quality cage properly installed.

Jake951

I bit the bullet and got a fully caged car last year after witnessing a car get totaled after a track crash. The driver was extremely lucky and walked away with only scratches because the car had only 3-point belts for safety equipment and its roof got seriously crushed in after hitting a tire wall and rolling over. Even if you are a really good driver and don't make mistakes, there are things out of your control that can happen. If someone in front of you dumps oil or coolant, it can have serious consequences when you're at speed.

FGL28

rbahr

The 'cage' question is really saying - 'do I want to take this street GT3 (yea, really!) and make it into a race car. I have built a couple of race cars - much better off buying one, esp with the current values of these GT3's. I went from a relatively fast caged car to the GT3, which is faster (ultimately), and I don't drive this quite as hard or as close to the limits. It is just the limits of the GT3 - even the lowley 996 variant is indeed very fast - esp when you clean a few things up.

Rick: I don't do 'moderation' very well :-)

John: that very nearly happened to me at LCMT last weekend - GT3 dumped coolant about midway down the back straight, I came around and saw the smoke - he was at the end of the straight ON THE LINE (common, just pull over when this happens!!!). I saw it and slowed down...

Nader: Let's be honest with ourselves: I rarely see anyone in Black or Red moderating, they just don't fight hard for the corners. We are all very competitive and mostly extreme Type A's - that is why we do it. I understand the need to instruct the lower groups to try and curb their competiveness and that is essential - they don't have the tools and will hurt themselves or someone else.

I guess I am approaching a point where I need to think harder about this - it could be just getting used to the car again...

Ray

Olemiss540

TBH, after a decade of this sport (HPDE's in particular), I would have to say the bulk majority of folks I have met are in fact NOT type A. Also, the majority of type A folks I happen to have come across are usually being punished by the end of the weekend by the event host for one reason or another.

If you think graduating up the ranks in PCA DE color lingo has any effect on ones ability to really handle a newish generation GT3, you are pretty sadly mistaken. Many folks are progressed these days based on their equipment's abilities instead of their own. That's bad news for the one time they happen to run out of talent and go over the edge at an absurd speed.

Much more fun to drive a slow caged car fast than a fast uncaged car slow IMO.

breljohn

How about a bolt-in cage?
Safe enough for DEs and can be removed if you want to sell the car

rbahr

Olemiss540: I apologize if I appeared flip, BUT I just got back from LCMT - must have been 6-10 GT3 & GT3RS - late model, all on real slicks not R compounds, some cup cars setting very fast lap times there - Black & Red drivers, all striving for PB's... BUT having fun.

Your response implies that Type-A's are jerks (or other words...) - it doesn't. It implies (for me) - always striving to be better and faster (in this sport). This is in part due to the competitive nature of things. I do KNOW folks who are where they are, accept it, and generally just enjoy themselves, but not a majority.

I never said anything like that, in fact we completely agree here. My student was driving a 2018 GT3RS, I spent some time discussing the merits of learning on a low HP inexpensive car...

I sorta agree here - been that, done that. BUT not always the case - I went to the GT3 for the reliability and the capability. The number of advanced drivers who don't drive a spec Boxster or Miata is pretty high. These cars can be had for cheap money, and I just don't see many of them in the advanced groups.

This is digressing from my original question: 'At what point does it become important for a full cage?' - I am hearing that it is a personal matter, and determined by one's risk profile - that makes sense to me.

rhargy

Like much of the feedback you've gotten already..........if you're thinking about it, it's time to get the cage in.

My personal epiphany came on the back straight at WGI when I was in my old 996TT......I glanced down and saw I was doing 145. At which point the brain said something like "Gee a rollbar isn't going to be a lot of help if you have a mechanical here". Cage went in shortly after.

rbahr

FWIW, 145mph at WGI came and went a while ago - I am seeing 150+mph there, 140mph+ at LCMT back straight - hence my questions, AND I have been thinking of upping my tire game to something a bit stickier :-)

Capt_and

I used to not think of safety very much since I haven't personally seen any big accidents. Then, a few weeks ago when I went out to shake down a race car build (in-process), and the front left tire went flat on the exit of a fast left hand sweeper. The car shot back across the track, went airborne a few times, spun, and headed toward another section of the track (also a faster corner) onto on coming traffic. I was able to steer the car away from the traffic and was close enough to the pit to drive there safely. When I got into pit, I noticed the emergency vehicles heading out onto the track and thought to myself, "woah! Someone else messed up worse than I did!" Nope, I set the track on fire even though the car wasn't stopped for more than 2 seconds. After reviewing the video I realized that I could have easily flipped, the car could have easily been part of the fire, and sometimes things just happen.

After that, I have told myself that I will not push the limits of the car without a cage and that fire safety should be taken more seriously. Luckily the car was already scheduled for a cage the next week... We took my wife's 100% stock street car out last week end and I couldn't bring myself to drive it any faster than 6/10th's.

RossP

In the same boat as you Ray. I recently came from a E46 M3 race car (NASA GTS3), full cage, halo seat, etc. Now in my 996 GT3 with the roll bar, GT3 euro seats, and 6 points, hans etc. Ultimately full cage means dedicated race car which then means trailer, truck, storage, logistics, time etc. I got out of racing because I did not have the time to do all that, I needed some form of arrive and drive.

If I was in your shoes, I would not tear up a 996 GT3 with a full cage. there are not many of our cars left! I would buy a built track car. (Heck, you could even get a 996 Cup car and have a shop "detune" the motor to vastly extend out the life/rebuild frequency).

rbahr

Hi RossP,

Funny you should say this, I do have a trailer etc, been doing that for a while... The E46M3 as a race car is something I have considered.

I just rebuilt my motor, opening one of these motors is expensive!

Thundermoose

E46 M3 is a good car. I need to fully cage mine.