Had my first DE today
07-16-2018, 10:51 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Echoing the above, for early (instructed) DE, there's no reason to turn off PSM... at that level and overall pace, if the traction control is repeatedly coming on, there's something else that needs to be addressed.
Cheers
Matt
Cheers
Matt
07-25-2018, 01:25 PM
#17
Former Vendor
Well that was a nice "pucker" moment you had there lol. Glad it turned out positive for you, it often doesn't. You should come out with us to Sebring, we run the Suncoast PCA events there. Before that though we should chat a bit about your brake fade, I'm curious what setup you were running if any different than OEM. There are some simply upgrade we can do to help offset that from happening again and give you a bit more confidence in that car. Give me a shout any time to discuss at 484 883 6197.
07-25-2018, 02:44 PM
#18
In SDR PCA Zone 8 there is a rule proposal about the turning off of the "nannies" by DE and TT drivers until deemed competent, talk about a slippery slope.
The term "Nannies" seems kind of odd also, wish I had a cute nanny when I was a kid.
Full nanny disclosure: my track car is equipped with a emergency flasher.
The term "Nannies" seems kind of odd also, wish I had a cute nanny when I was a kid.
Full nanny disclosure: my track car is equipped with a emergency flasher.
07-25-2018, 05:45 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Having grown up driving in the snow in the winter and doing my best dukes-of-hazzard runs in the summers, sliding is nothing new to me and was generally the whole point of driving sometimes... Just don't really get the cost/benefit ratio of turning it off.
07-25-2018, 06:07 PM
#20
Instructor
Thread Starter
Well that was a nice "pucker" moment you had there lol. Glad it turned out positive for you, it often doesn't. You should come out with us to Sebring, we run the Suncoast PCA events there. Before that though we should chat a bit about your brake fade, I'm curious what setup you were running if any different than OEM. There are some simply upgrade we can do to help offset that from happening again and give you a bit more confidence in that car. Give me a shout any time to discuss at 484 883 6197.
I do this for fun and part of the fun is exploring and feeling the limits of the car, in this case I felt more than what I wanted to, but I have learned from it and are moving on. Notice I am not looking for fast lap time or top end speed, I just like to go thru the corners as efficiently and consistant as possible.
So far the plan is to run Sebring with CHIN on October and possibly Homestead again with PCA on the same month.
The car was setup with Cool Carbon D916 front pads and factory rears, it also had "supposedly" high performance fluid. Since the event, I have replaced the front air scoops with 997-GT3 ones, also flushed all the fluid out of the brakes and replaced it with ATE Type 200. I am undecided if to leave the Cool Carbon pads or replace them as well, they have less than 200 miles on them. Also not sure what to do for the rears.
07-25-2018, 06:15 PM
#21
Race Car
1+ on going to Sebring.
IMO, Homestead's T10 is not a turn to coast in. You need to commit and plant the rear of the car and drive it rather than steer.
But you also need to scrub a lot of speed in T11. If you are out of shape on the entry, and aren't on the gas, or worse lift, you spin out.. On that turn, I'd rather drive off the track on the right, or drop a wheel. under control. its not that bad, and much better than the wall.
And I've never heard so much laughing on track... what's really going on there?
IMO, Homestead's T10 is not a turn to coast in. You need to commit and plant the rear of the car and drive it rather than steer.
But you also need to scrub a lot of speed in T11. If you are out of shape on the entry, and aren't on the gas, or worse lift, you spin out.. On that turn, I'd rather drive off the track on the right, or drop a wheel. under control. its not that bad, and much better than the wall.
And I've never heard so much laughing on track... what's really going on there?
07-25-2018, 06:25 PM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
1+ on going to Sebring.
IMO, Homestead's T10 is not a turn to coast in. You need to commit and plant the rear of the car and drive it rather than steer.
But you also need to scrub a lot of speed in T11. If you are out of shape on the entry, and aren't on the gas, or worse lift, you spin out.. On that turn, I'd rather drive off the track on the right, or drop a wheel. under control. its not that bad, and much better than the wall.
And I've never heard so much laughing on track... what's really going on there?
IMO, Homestead's T10 is not a turn to coast in. You need to commit and plant the rear of the car and drive it rather than steer.
But you also need to scrub a lot of speed in T11. If you are out of shape on the entry, and aren't on the gas, or worse lift, you spin out.. On that turn, I'd rather drive off the track on the right, or drop a wheel. under control. its not that bad, and much better than the wall.
And I've never heard so much laughing on track... what's really going on there?
I asked my daughter and Friend, after I saw the video, what they were laughing so much about, apparently when they went by us they saw the instructor and me jumping of joy in the car and high fiving each other, I am sure stress release had something to do with it as well.
07-25-2018, 06:58 PM
#23
Race Car
Brain fade is just another skill to master! & its good to be lucky! LOL!
Sebring is so much longer, and a variety of slow and fast turns, its my favorite place to instruct in FL. you have time to discuss turns in the straits, also good runoff.
Sebring is so much longer, and a variety of slow and fast turns, its my favorite place to instruct in FL. you have time to discuss turns in the straits, also good runoff.
07-26-2018, 09:21 AM
#24
Rennlist Member
I've left PSM on for every event I've done in my Spyder. I've only had it come on one time, that was with an instructor in the car. Solo I have not had it come on yet at all. Question - what am I losing by leaving this on? From everything I understand I may be losing a few seconds off a lap time - is it more than that? It hasn't bothered me at all. Of course I have nothing like this on the Miata.
Having grown up driving in the snow in the winter and doing my best dukes-of-hazzard runs in the summers, sliding is nothing new to me and was generally the whole point of driving sometimes... Just don't really get the cost/benefit ratio of turning it off.
Having grown up driving in the snow in the winter and doing my best dukes-of-hazzard runs in the summers, sliding is nothing new to me and was generally the whole point of driving sometimes... Just don't really get the cost/benefit ratio of turning it off.
The best way to tell if you're being 'saved' a lot is to gage the consumption of your rear brake pads. These newer cars will gently apply brake pressure on one rear pad (something you can't do since you don't have four separate brake pedals) when it thinks the car is sliding out more than it should. If you are somewhat experienced (above the Green/Blue/Yellow levels) and you are consuming rears at the same pace as fronts then it's time for you to focus on car control and work out a plan to turn off the nannies.
Here's how I did it. I went to a specific track that had a few wide open corners with lots of open runoff. I ran laps at 7/10 with the nannies off but pushed it up to 10/10 (and beyond
) in those open corners. This really helped me feel what was going on and I had it figured out by the end of the day. Worth noting is that my previous car was a 996 and I could throw that car around like a rag doll, it took a while to learn how to do that with the 991 - very different platform - and your Spyder may be very different from your previous/familiar car.
07-26-2018, 09:28 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Thank you for the offer, I will take you up on it. Yeah it was an exiting moment. During the spin my instructor kept on saying we were going to hit the wall, and I'm like no we are not, is funny we were having a conversation about this while this was happening. Apparently it is very common to hit the wall there, I like to think that me hitting the brake pedal hard and early had something to do with not destroying the car, but who knows, the same goes with having AWD and PSM no way to tell if it would had prevent this from happening or not.
I do this for fun and part of the fun is exploring and feeling the limits of the car, in this case I felt more than what I wanted to, but I have learned from it and are moving on. Notice I am not looking for fast lap time or top end speed, I just like to go thru the corners as efficiently and consistant as possible.
So far the plan is to run Sebring with CHIN on October and possibly Homestead again with PCA on the same month.
The car was setup with Cool Carbon D916 front pads and factory rears, it also had "supposedly" high performance fluid. Since the event, I have replaced the front air scoops with 997-GT3 ones, also flushed all the fluid out of the brakes and replaced it with ATE Type 200. I am undecided if to leave the Cool Carbon pads or replace them as well, they have less than 200 miles on them. Also not sure what to do for the rears.
I do this for fun and part of the fun is exploring and feeling the limits of the car, in this case I felt more than what I wanted to, but I have learned from it and are moving on. Notice I am not looking for fast lap time or top end speed, I just like to go thru the corners as efficiently and consistant as possible.
So far the plan is to run Sebring with CHIN on October and possibly Homestead again with PCA on the same month.
The car was setup with Cool Carbon D916 front pads and factory rears, it also had "supposedly" high performance fluid. Since the event, I have replaced the front air scoops with 997-GT3 ones, also flushed all the fluid out of the brakes and replaced it with ATE Type 200. I am undecided if to leave the Cool Carbon pads or replace them as well, they have less than 200 miles on them. Also not sure what to do for the rears.
07-26-2018, 11:48 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
While you are probably losing a little time it's not going to be a lot. These newer cars are much less intrusive and let you push the car pretty hard.
The best way to tell if you're being 'saved' a lot is to gage the consumption of your rear brake pads. These newer cars will gently apply brake pressure on one rear pad (something you can't do since you don't have four separate brake pedals) when it thinks the car is sliding out more than it should. If you are somewhat experienced (above the Green/Blue/Yellow levels) and you are consuming rears at the same pace as fronts then it's time for you to focus on car control and work out a plan to turn off the nannies.
Here's how I did it. I went to a specific track that had a few wide open corners with lots of open runoff. I ran laps at 7/10 with the nannies off but pushed it up to 10/10 (and beyond
) in those open corners. This really helped me feel what was going on and I had it figured out by the end of the day. Worth noting is that my previous car was a 996 and I could throw that car around like a rag doll, it took a while to learn how to do that with the 991 - very different platform - and your Spyder may be very different from your previous/familiar car.
07-26-2018, 04:58 PM
#28
Race Car
No way I'd be laughing and giving my student high fives for spinning out.
If I did, I'm sure my chief instructor would give me a good chewing out.
This sport has to be taken seriously.
If I did, I'm sure my chief instructor would give me a good chewing out.
This sport has to be taken seriously.
07-26-2018, 11:52 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
I've left PSM on for every event I've done in my Spyder. I've only had it come on one time, that was with an instructor in the car. Solo I have not had it come on yet at all. Question - what am I losing by leaving this on? From everything I understand I may be losing a few seconds off a lap time - is it more than that? It hasn't bothered me at all. Of course I have nothing like this on the Miata.
Having grown up driving in the snow in the winter and doing my best dukes-of-hazzard runs in the summers, sliding is nothing new to me and was generally the whole point of driving sometimes... Just don't really get the cost/benefit ratio of turning it off.
Having grown up driving in the snow in the winter and doing my best dukes-of-hazzard runs in the summers, sliding is nothing new to me and was generally the whole point of driving sometimes... Just don't really get the cost/benefit ratio of turning it off.
Once you start to lose traction and PSM intervenes regularly, it's up to you and your instructor/coach to determine if this is due to lack of smoothness/technique, or legitimately and consciously driving outside the performance parameters of Porsche PSM. It's generally the former - PSM can mask a ton of mistakes, the solution is not necessarily to turn it off.
Better to understand why it's intervening and act on that. If that is not possible to do with a good degree of confidence, then I'd say continue to leave it on so you don't end up in a wall by accident like almost happened above. BTW - the Spyder is a great car. Enjoy it safely!
Cheers
Matt
07-27-2018, 07:59 PM
#30
Former Vendor
Thank you for the offer, I will take you up on it. Yeah it was an exiting moment. During the spin my instructor kept on saying we were going to hit the wall, and I'm like no we are not, is funny we were having a conversation about this while this was happening. Apparently it is very common to hit the wall there, I like to think that me hitting the brake pedal hard and early had something to do with not destroying the car, but who knows, the same goes with having AWD and PSM no way to tell if it would had prevent this from happening or not.
I do this for fun and part of the fun is exploring and feeling the limits of the car, in this case I felt more than what I wanted to, but I have learned from it and are moving on. Notice I am not looking for fast lap time or top end speed, I just like to go thru the corners as efficiently and consistant as possible.
So far the plan is to run Sebring with CHIN on October and possibly Homestead again with PCA on the same month.
The car was setup with Cool Carbon D916 front pads and factory rears, it also had "supposedly" high performance fluid. Since the event, I have replaced the front air scoops with 997-GT3 ones, also flushed all the fluid out of the brakes and replaced it with ATE Type 200. I am undecided if to leave the Cool Carbon pads or replace them as well, they have less than 200 miles on them. Also not sure what to do for the rears.
I do this for fun and part of the fun is exploring and feeling the limits of the car, in this case I felt more than what I wanted to, but I have learned from it and are moving on. Notice I am not looking for fast lap time or top end speed, I just like to go thru the corners as efficiently and consistant as possible.
So far the plan is to run Sebring with CHIN on October and possibly Homestead again with PCA on the same month.
The car was setup with Cool Carbon D916 front pads and factory rears, it also had "supposedly" high performance fluid. Since the event, I have replaced the front air scoops with 997-GT3 ones, also flushed all the fluid out of the brakes and replaced it with ATE Type 200. I am undecided if to leave the Cool Carbon pads or replace them as well, they have less than 200 miles on them. Also not sure what to do for the rears.
You should come out with Suncoast PCA on September 15th/16th as well, we put on a good event : )
ATE 200 is a good fluid, if you ever want to step it up Castrol SRF would be another good option for you. Brake ducts are a good move, you can add scoops to the rear as well but it requires a little fab work. I can't say we have any experience with cool Carbon pads, we prefer running Pagids. On iron rotors, our ideal setup at the moment is RSL1 front and RS29 rear. Superb initial bite and great balance. Noisy on the street though.