Laguna Seca: low-grip surface?
09-13-2018, 05:06 AM
#46
Looks like some of you tend to forget that L.S. is in California !
i.e.:
. Even in summer, nights are very cold. (Track need time to heat up.)
. No rain in L.S. (..this is NOT the Spa * climate here !!) NO natural track wash before the winter. Dirt fm engines accumulate on surface, (and wind can blow fine sand)
So, imo, this is not a lowgrip surface, but simply local conditions.
Beside that, it is not fast, ..because pretty curvy design and the track is only moderately wide, or, ..it is true that you can easily have ..more than two wheels out !
(In close to 2,000km driven there, I had "only" one black flag, some good time ago, ..because of too wide exit at turn 11, using the artificial grass in the right, ..as a good track surface !)
* For those of you that do not know Spa, the track is always clean, ..as it rain so often there ! But, do not get me wrong, imo, Spa is the nicest track that I know in this World !
i.e.:
. Even in summer, nights are very cold. (Track need time to heat up.)
. No rain in L.S. (..this is NOT the Spa * climate here !!) NO natural track wash before the winter. Dirt fm engines accumulate on surface, (and wind can blow fine sand)
So, imo, this is not a lowgrip surface, but simply local conditions.
Beside that, it is not fast, ..because pretty curvy design and the track is only moderately wide, or, ..it is true that you can easily have ..more than two wheels out !
(In close to 2,000km driven there, I had "only" one black flag, some good time ago, ..because of too wide exit at turn 11, using the artificial grass in the right, ..as a good track surface !)
* For those of you that do not know Spa, the track is always clean, ..as it rain so often there ! But, do not get me wrong, imo, Spa is the nicest track that I know in this World !
09-13-2018, 01:42 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
God, I never clicked on this thread because I don't really care if LS is low grip or not but now that I did I'm so sad, which is a feeling and not data. I'm not sure which is superior, but I'm pretty sure I feel flat out so I'm not gonna check the data.
09-13-2018, 01:44 PM
#48
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DTMiller, coffee up my nose!
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
09-13-2018, 02:44 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
some valid points. however, turn 11 exit may look like its astroturf because it is colored green , but it clearly is not. its cement and very gripy as is now, the exit of turn6.
Now , if your reasoning was correct, what would be the reasons that the other tracks in california have grip levels any different. after all , Sonoma, buttonwillow, willow springs, Cal speedway, Parump , thunderhill, etc etc, all stay dry with no rainfall after May through November. one thing, it is a cold track in the am. but after 10:30 when the fast cars can run and make noise, its warm .... but then again, ive driven in near ice conditions at Thunderhill one morning, and it was pretty slick too. Peter is going to approach this from an surface aggregate engineer , which he isnt. if you want to know about track construction , here is a primer: http://buildingspeed.org/blog/2012/0...nt-vs-asphalt/
Bottom line, i think many people view laguna as slick-er mainly because of its configuration and layout and sometimes because with a lot of off track excursions, some sand can be brought on the track,no different than many other tracks in california. ive seen most of the "offs" over the last 20 years of racing at sears point (sonoma) and personally have experienced very slick conditions that are strictly functions of oil, water on the track, but he track is very unforgiving for such conditions with , as the nascar drvers said, "more turns than a bucket of snakes". i havent see the data one way or another.. i only have "feelings" and experience here. have fun.... Laguna is a track that doesnt like to be overdriven, but is easy to do because it is so "point and shoot". thats all, nothing more here.
Now , if your reasoning was correct, what would be the reasons that the other tracks in california have grip levels any different. after all , Sonoma, buttonwillow, willow springs, Cal speedway, Parump , thunderhill, etc etc, all stay dry with no rainfall after May through November. one thing, it is a cold track in the am. but after 10:30 when the fast cars can run and make noise, its warm .... but then again, ive driven in near ice conditions at Thunderhill one morning, and it was pretty slick too. Peter is going to approach this from an surface aggregate engineer , which he isnt. if you want to know about track construction , here is a primer: http://buildingspeed.org/blog/2012/0...nt-vs-asphalt/
Bottom line, i think many people view laguna as slick-er mainly because of its configuration and layout and sometimes because with a lot of off track excursions, some sand can be brought on the track,no different than many other tracks in california. ive seen most of the "offs" over the last 20 years of racing at sears point (sonoma) and personally have experienced very slick conditions that are strictly functions of oil, water on the track, but he track is very unforgiving for such conditions with , as the nascar drvers said, "more turns than a bucket of snakes". i havent see the data one way or another.. i only have "feelings" and experience here. have fun.... Laguna is a track that doesnt like to be overdriven, but is easy to do because it is so "point and shoot". thats all, nothing more here.
Looks like some of you tend to forget that L.S. is in California !
i.e.:
. Even in summer, nights are very cold. (Track need time to heat up.)
. No rain in L.S. (..this is NOT the Spa * climate here !!) NO natural track wash before the winter. Dirt fm engines accumulate on surface, (and wind can blow fine sand)
So, imo, this is not a lowgrip surface, but simply local conditions.
Beside that, it is not fast, ..because pretty curvy design and the track is only moderately wide, or, ..it is true that you can easily have ..more than two wheels out !
(In close to 2,000km driven there, I had "only" one black flag, some good time ago, ..because of too wide exit at turn 11, using the artificial grass in the right, ..as a good track surface !)
* For those of you that do not know Spa, the track is always clean, ..as it rain so often there ! But, do not get me wrong, imo, Spa is the nicest track that I know in this World !
i.e.:
. Even in summer, nights are very cold. (Track need time to heat up.)
. No rain in L.S. (..this is NOT the Spa * climate here !!) NO natural track wash before the winter. Dirt fm engines accumulate on surface, (and wind can blow fine sand)
So, imo, this is not a lowgrip surface, but simply local conditions.
Beside that, it is not fast, ..because pretty curvy design and the track is only moderately wide, or, ..it is true that you can easily have ..more than two wheels out !
(In close to 2,000km driven there, I had "only" one black flag, some good time ago, ..because of too wide exit at turn 11, using the artificial grass in the right, ..as a good track surface !)
* For those of you that do not know Spa, the track is always clean, ..as it rain so often there ! But, do not get me wrong, imo, Spa is the nicest track that I know in this World !
09-14-2018, 02:26 AM
#50
I also think that the design of L.S. is such that the aero of the cars is less efficient here than on a fastest track.
..i.e.: thinking at turn 2 or 11, where speed is below one to make the aero efficient.
..i.e.: thinking at turn 2 or 11, where speed is below one to make the aero efficient.
09-14-2018, 03:32 AM
#51
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09-14-2018, 06:57 AM
#52
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Since few GT cars (and almost no street cars, remember downforce for them is to combat lift and aid balance at very high speeds) develop any significant downforce, especially at the speeds they are going at most of the corners at WLSR and many other tracks in North America, aero really doesn’t come into play here.
The threshold is higher than you think, for GT cars, much higher for street cars. Purpose-built sports Racing and formula cars? That’s different. I have a fair bit of data for those here, mostly Historic F1 and prototype cars 1:21.XXX and above..
Besides, Mark, you say the driver drives the car, right? It’s all on them, right? Make up your mind.
Laguna Seca is not only a low-grip (mechanical, tire adhesion to the polished aggregate, mu) surface, it’s a slow track in comparison to vMin average at many other, larger tracks. Part of the fun!
“Drive the Track” should be everyone’s mantra.
The threshold is higher than you think, for GT cars, much higher for street cars. Purpose-built sports Racing and formula cars? That’s different. I have a fair bit of data for those here, mostly Historic F1 and prototype cars 1:21.XXX and above..
Besides, Mark, you say the driver drives the car, right? It’s all on them, right? Make up your mind.
Laguna Seca is not only a low-grip (mechanical, tire adhesion to the polished aggregate, mu) surface, it’s a slow track in comparison to vMin average at many other, larger tracks. Part of the fun!
“Drive the Track” should be everyone’s mantra.
09-14-2018, 01:06 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Peter, make up my "mind" about what? I've been consistent in my message. yes, it is ON the driver and most of the difference and your hypothesis of the "aggregate" being different than other tracks in california or america and causing it to be a track with "less grip" just doesnt stand up to the actual data, that being g loading on those turns that dont pay dividends with banking. (flat turns)
as you know there are so many factors in racing... and many of the "feel" issues, are and can be driver induced and related.. again, laguna is slow , relative to other tracks and drivers are prone to over drive the track.. when overdriven, the car exhibits push , slide and oversteer characteristics. ive coached in cars with drivers that say the car is " undriveable " "oversteering ". i drive it and its hooked up and several faster seconds a lap... why is that??
yes, downforce is helpful at laguna, and Ive tested my car with over 100lbs of downfore at the slower speeds 70-80mph . not huge, but noticeable when removed. helps turns 4, 6 and 9. But as was said, if you are driver with a LOT of experience driving fast sweeping tracks and leaniing on downforce, it will be an adjustment at laguna. Mainly because the speeds are slower.
so yes, it is the driver.. drive the track and remember , perception can be reality in MANY ways in racing. laguna has relatively the same grip as any other track you are going to visit.. no one here has any data to support that it doesnt. go look at your data Peter. gPeak accelerations will be the same for a given speed and turn radius. the only time it wont is when it is covered in sand, or has been oiled down by a leaking car..
the surface has changed over the years and changes have been made to the track..... however, with half the track giving massive grip due to camber/banking and the others being slow and cut-back in angle, its really hard to tell if its the car or the driver causing any feeling of "lack of grip". All the logical facilities will be used to prove it, and we all know, those are not proofs. what i am telling you are legitimate reasons the track may feel like it has less grip than others, but it in most cases will not be the fact.
yes, drive the track.. have fun!
mk
as you know there are so many factors in racing... and many of the "feel" issues, are and can be driver induced and related.. again, laguna is slow , relative to other tracks and drivers are prone to over drive the track.. when overdriven, the car exhibits push , slide and oversteer characteristics. ive coached in cars with drivers that say the car is " undriveable " "oversteering ". i drive it and its hooked up and several faster seconds a lap... why is that??
yes, downforce is helpful at laguna, and Ive tested my car with over 100lbs of downfore at the slower speeds 70-80mph . not huge, but noticeable when removed. helps turns 4, 6 and 9. But as was said, if you are driver with a LOT of experience driving fast sweeping tracks and leaniing on downforce, it will be an adjustment at laguna. Mainly because the speeds are slower.
so yes, it is the driver.. drive the track and remember , perception can be reality in MANY ways in racing. laguna has relatively the same grip as any other track you are going to visit.. no one here has any data to support that it doesnt. go look at your data Peter. gPeak accelerations will be the same for a given speed and turn radius. the only time it wont is when it is covered in sand, or has been oiled down by a leaking car..
the surface has changed over the years and changes have been made to the track..... however, with half the track giving massive grip due to camber/banking and the others being slow and cut-back in angle, its really hard to tell if its the car or the driver causing any feeling of "lack of grip". All the logical facilities will be used to prove it, and we all know, those are not proofs. what i am telling you are legitimate reasons the track may feel like it has less grip than others, but it in most cases will not be the fact.
yes, drive the track.. have fun!
mk
Since few GT cars (and almost no street cars, remember downforce for them is to combat lift and aid balance at very high speeds) develop any significant downforce, especially at the speeds they are going at most of the corners at WLSR and many other tracks in North America, aero really doesn’t come into play here.
The threshold is higher than you think, for GT cars, much higher for street cars. Purpose-built sports Racing and formula cars? That’s different. I have a fair bit of data for those here, mostly Historic F1 and prototype cars 1:21.XXX and above..
Besides, Mark, you say the driver drives the car, right? It’s all on them, right? Make up your mind.
Laguna Seca is not only a low-grip (mechanical, tire adhesion to the polished aggregate, mu) surface, it’s a slow track in comparison to vMin average at many other, larger tracks. Part of the fun!
“Drive the Track” should be everyone’s mantra.
The threshold is higher than you think, for GT cars, much higher for street cars. Purpose-built sports Racing and formula cars? That’s different. I have a fair bit of data for those here, mostly Historic F1 and prototype cars 1:21.XXX and above..
Besides, Mark, you say the driver drives the car, right? It’s all on them, right? Make up your mind.
Laguna Seca is not only a low-grip (mechanical, tire adhesion to the polished aggregate, mu) surface, it’s a slow track in comparison to vMin average at many other, larger tracks. Part of the fun!
“Drive the Track” should be everyone’s mantra.
09-14-2018, 01:13 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Yeah, there's zero chance Peter has access to the data or bases his views on it. That's Peter, his motto for YEARS has been give me butt dyno or give me death!
09-14-2018, 01:32 PM
#56
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09-14-2018, 02:05 PM
#57
Once a thread is Kiborted, the culprit has no choice but to go all in. That means ignoring what everyone else has to say. Because the culprit must be correct or he would have never opened his mouth to begin with. All evidence is to be tossed aside. Other opinions, even those from drivers like fleadh, are treated as invalid becuase no one could know more about driving Laguna Seca than Kibort!
09-14-2018, 02:13 PM
#58
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Here, we're saying the comparative level of grip (coefficient of mechanical friction) of the track at WLSR make it tough to do that.
It also make it tough to change the setup of the car to significantly improve mechanical grip, beyond a particular point. The car simply doesn't improve with changes that do improve it on other track surfaces in North America.
COTA is similar in this way, particularly after the latest surface diamond grinding, MAKING it SMOOTHER and reducing the ability of the tire to undergo the chemical process bonding it to the track surface.
The pros thow it in there anyway, and expect to be able to pull it out. WLSR doesn't help that approach. Witness last weekend.
Yes, I have nearly 250 GB of video and data FOR WLSR ALONE, compiled from more than fifty different cars (mostly in the 1:21.XXX to 1:27.XXX range), spanning the last ten years, from rank amateurs to Le Mans winning drivers.
That's what I base my assertions and observations on. Not "feelings."
Peace, out.
09-14-2018, 09:49 PM
#60
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Once a thread is Kiborted, the culprit has no choice but to go all in. That means ignoring what everyone else has to say. Because the culprit must be correct or he would have never opened his mouth to begin with. All evidence is to be tossed aside. Other opinions, even those from drivers like fleadh, are treated as invalid becuase no one could know more about driving Laguna Seca than Kibort!