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Laguna Seca: low-grip surface?

 
Old 07-09-2018, 11:09 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by ProCoach View Post


Correct.

The OP’s incorrect assumption and Mark’s comments notwithstanding, in Ross’ and my experience, as well as most other top racing engineers, WRLS has lower relative grip (mu) than many other tracks in North America.

While sand and orher debris are no doubt more of a factor here than say, Mid-Ohio or COTA (other tracks that exhibit lower mu than many others), that has nothing to do with our calculations and resultant data and experience, relative to some other tracks in North America.
I fully agree with this as well. Relatively speaking Laguna has less grip than most of the other big name tracks. Especially, in comparison to the tracks in the midwest and east coast. Not only is it apparent in the data, but also apparent with the setup changes that are required to make vehicles work at Laguna.
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 2BWise View Post
I fully agree with this as well. Relatively speaking Laguna has less grip than most of the other big name tracks. Especially, in comparison to the tracks in the midwest and east coast. Not only is it apparent in the data, but also apparent with the setup changes that are required to make vehicles work at Laguna.
I wonder if most racers agree with that statement. What data are you speaking of? are we talking max g loading? could some of those set up changes be due to the track configuraiton. laguna is more point and shoot, vs most. All tracks are different, but i would submit that most of he differences of laguna, based on any data might be primarily due to the tracks configuration...... if a track has downhill approaches to braking zones, grip will seem to be compromised, compared to other tracks that have braking points at the same initial speeds. tuns that are off camber, also will give similar comparisons... in order to do a comparison of the surface , you really need more of a controlled set of variables. personally, and many that have been to many of the east coast major tracks, like mid ohio, mosport, road america, road atlanta, etc, or even some of the major tracks in california, like thunderhill, sears point or cal speedway, say that laguna dont really feel laguna's surface is any different. even if the surface was lower grip, there are so many turns of Laguna with compression or where downforce can be taken advantage , that it leaves 2 turns with low grip. (from 20 years of racing here , on the average of 3 times per year) turn 3 and turn 11. the rest are high grip, comparatively to any track I've visited. (particularly, turn 5, 6, 8, 9 10.) some of the differences , like visiting any track, also depend on conditions. when you visit it. I s the track green? Does it have a lot of rubber laid down from previous pro or club weekeneds... so many varaibles.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:38 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by zzyzx View Post
Why is Laguna Seca considered a low-grip surface? I was listened again to the super excellent "virtual track walk" done by Peter Kraus and Ross Bentley. They seemed to say that it had a low grip surface due to dust blowing on the track. When I've driven the track, I don't see any dust/dirt on the surface. Is there another explanation? Is it really a low-grip track? Is it just a matter of there being a lot of slow corners, and also how those corners are cambered?
Umm, yep.

Jeroen Bleekemolen says:

For those that can't see the post: "P2 and P3 in practice today. Very low grip out there, luckily this is the same for all. Qualifying tomorrow at 12.45pm (21.45h CET) on IMSA.tv"
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Old 09-08-2018, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ProCoach View Post
Umm, yep.

Jeroen Bleekemolen says: https://www.facebook.com/bleekemolen...92465627500401

For those that can't see the post: "P2 and P3 in practice today. Very low grip out there, luckily this is the same for all. Qualifying tomorrow at 12.45pm (21.45h CET) on IMSA.tv"
uhhhh, how long have you been doing this Peter??? 'low grip" ????? compared to what??? other tracks? maybe he is talking about other days he has raced there. all tracks have days where grip is less than before, right?

Laguna is not low grip. it is a tough circuit that pushes the car harder than most tracks. look at the data to see if laguna is any lower grip than other tracks... i have .. it isnt.

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Old 09-09-2018, 12:18 PM
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IMO, Laguna is always low grip. This weekend has been no different in my experience so far. I'm not sure what causes it but it seems like the dirt/dust being blown or brought onto the entire track all day.

-mike
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Old 09-10-2018, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by fleadh View Post
IMO, Laguna is always low grip. This weekend has been no different in my experience so far. I'm not sure what causes it but it seems like the dirt/dust being blown or brought onto the entire track all day.

-mike
so many things cause it to be low grip, how do you really know for sure. the configuration is such to induce a LOT of low speed understeer which always challenges racers to find more grip. It doesnt me the track is low grip, just means grip is very critical in so many spots on the track. Now, if you had some data saying that you could pull more gs somewhere else, that would be actual data to compare. i dont think in reality, Laguna, sears or thunderhill have any more grip over one another. Ive also raced Laguna more than most over the past 20 years and seen sides of it that not many have seen. even after a rain day, where there is no chance of "dust, sand, etc" it seens to not change much. i notice more after other professional race events have been held a day or even week prior to our using the track for our races. You have been there over the past few years now as well. you say this weekend was no different........ i think the times tell a lot. the only time the grip has changed, in a major way (like 1 second per lap change for ALL) was when they repaved it in 2009. THEN it was different. the odd thing was, it felt very slidy and the tires made noise.....but the lap times were faster. .. the data on cars with "data" said it was faster then too.

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Old 09-10-2018, 06:22 PM
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Never driven Laguna Seca but all the announcers kept talking about during this past weekend's IMSA race was the low grip. With cars going off everywhere it sure looked true to me.
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Old 09-10-2018, 07:58 PM
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For me, Laguna project the illusion that's it grippy because it's so damn smooth. Compared to our So Cal tracks which are all fairly rough, Laguna's 10 yo surface is like glass so you expect it to have great grip. Aslo the dirt, sand, dust dies become a factor after a few sessions with cars going off and bringing that stuff back on track. Still, master T's 4,5,& 6 and you're on your way....
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:32 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by LuigiVampa View Post
Never driven Laguna Seca but all the announcers kept talking about during this past weekend's IMSA race was the low grip. With cars going off everywhere it sure looked true to me.
Again, after driving many tracks, and seeing how people "go off" , i can safely say its not the lack of grip that is the issue. a skilled driver will always keep the car under him or within the reach of control. those that are not familiar, like at any track, and get too aggressive and push over the edge, can loose control.. its simple. Again, its not that the track has low grip, it has high speed straights and low speed turns.. the main turns are all mostly 90 degree in angle, (some tight and some wide) and 4 have banking and 3 being flat amd one being a 190 degree. you overdrive it, and it seems like its the track being slippery, but its not.

Originally Posted by jrgordonsenior View Post
For me, Laguna project the illusion that's it grippy because it's so damn smooth. Compared to our So Cal tracks which are all fairly rough, Laguna's 10 yo surface is like glass so you expect it to have great grip. Aslo the dirt, sand, dust dies become a factor after a few sessions with cars going off and bringing that stuff back on track. Still, master T's 4,5,& 6 and you're on your way....
yep, there is probably more grip on 5, 6 , 8, and 10 than any track in the country. i would be certain that cornering gs are higher here than most any other turns in racing...You mention LA tracks, i was sliding all over the place at cal speedway on the infield with the "rough grippy surface".. there was NO grip at the exit of that first big hairpin turn 5. rough as can be! i dont know if you ever drove laguna after repaving, but it was a dream to drive. even though the car was sliding around, you had the ILLUSION that it was slick, but it wasnt. very very fast. everyone was 1 second faster.
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Old 09-10-2018, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mark kibort View Post
A skilled driver will always keep the car under him or within the reach of control. those that are not familiar, like at any track, and get too aggressive and push over the edge, can loose control.. its simple.

Again, its not that the track has low grip, it has high speed straights and low speed turns.. the main turns are all mostly 90 degree in angle, (some tight and some wide) and 4 have banking and 3 being flat amd one being a 190 degree. you overdrive it, and it seems like its the track being slippery, but its not.


yep, there is probably more grip on 5, 6 , 8, and 10 than any track in the country. i would be certain that cornering gs are higher here than most any other turns in racing...
Yes, your first posit is true. But these drivers have a better calibrated *** than even you, and they're counting on grip that isn't there. Hence, the track surface is lower grip than other tracks they go to. Period.

Most tracks have high speed straights and low speed turns. Laguna Seca is lower in top speed than almost all the big East Coast and Midwest tracks, it also has the slowest corner of any of the major tracks including Namerow at Mont Tremblant and Turn 7 at Sebring. It's not that quick a track, top or bottom. Turn 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 10 are NOT 90 degree turns. Turns 2, 5, 6, 8A, 9 and 10 are well cambered (banked).

Umm, no. While there is good grip, relative to the other turns, at Turns 5, 6 and 10, the cornering g's are NOT higher here than most ANY other turns in racing.

Mark, you need to get out more...
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Old 09-10-2018, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mark kibort View Post
how do you really know for sure.
Because I've been to many other tracks that have better grip over many years.

-mike
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by mark kibort View Post
Again, after driving many tracks, and seeing how people "go off" , i can safely say its not the lack of grip that is the issue. a skilled driver will always keep the car under him or within the reach of control....
So the Pro drivers this weekend at the IMSA aren't skilled? They commented during their interviews that Laguna is more slick and has less grip than other tracks that they race in the IMSA series.

It sounds like you have been taking this as a personal attack from the beginning of the thread. Your defense of Laguna's reputation goes against the opinion of every racer who has been to multiple tracks.

Low grip isn't a bad thing, it is just an observation and it is an equal handicap for all cars.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mark kibort View Post
yep, there is probably more grip on 5, 6 , 8, and 10 than any track in the country. i would be certain that cornering gs are higher here than most any other turns in racing.....
Banked corners are a different challenge all together. You can have a slippery surface, but with enough banking still carry high speeds and have high g's
The hairpin at Chuckwalla definitely has more "grip" due to it's banking than those turns you listed. Personally, I don't think banked corners are a fair test of grip since there are other physics involved; nor are they as much fun in my opinion.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:29 PM
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Mark I think you are a smart guy and add to the conversation. Others may disagree but I find you entertaining. But every once in a while, like this thread, I feel like you stake out a position that is so far out there that I wonder if you are trolling everyone and just giggling to yourself.

If you are sincere in your beliefs than I think you might have missed your calling as a permanently contrary teenager disagreeing with his parents.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:31 PM
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