When do people become instructors ?
06-18-2018, 06:46 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by ExMB
^
First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry you had an instructor that wouldn't give you further help upon your request. I've never encountered that in the regions I instruct. (Disclaimer: I have missed a students session - walking up to the student (after their request), they entered their car, waved and drove off -
. Afterwards they questioned why I wasn't available til they remembered their wave-off - oops)
If you have an organization overload an instructor with students you shouldn't blame the instructor. They are doing their best as a volunteer to satisfy all of their students. You should go to the organization's CDI and express your expectations.
Again, instructors are volunteers. There are instructors that will help to get you started and then there are advanced instructors for more in depth instructions. I read your post as you wanting professional coaching at a fraction of the cost. Maybe I'm reading it wrong here. Did you have video/data set up in your car for your instructor to analyze with you? What makes you think the instructor would be familiar with it? Do you expect your instructor to provide it?
In addition while you mention PCA in passing you didn't identify the organizations that didn't meet with your expectations.
P.S.
Not all organizations provide free track time to instructors. Some regions are too small and barely make it hosting an event so they count on instructor volunteers as well.
First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry you had an instructor that wouldn't give you further help upon your request. I've never encountered that in the regions I instruct. (Disclaimer: I have missed a students session - walking up to the student (after their request), they entered their car, waved and drove off -
. Afterwards they questioned why I wasn't available til they remembered their wave-off - oops)If you have an organization overload an instructor with students you shouldn't blame the instructor. They are doing their best as a volunteer to satisfy all of their students. You should go to the organization's CDI and express your expectations.
Again, instructors are volunteers. There are instructors that will help to get you started and then there are advanced instructors for more in depth instructions. I read your post as you wanting professional coaching at a fraction of the cost. Maybe I'm reading it wrong here. Did you have video/data set up in your car for your instructor to analyze with you? What makes you think the instructor would be familiar with it? Do you expect your instructor to provide it?
In addition while you mention PCA in passing you didn't identify the organizations that didn't meet with your expectations.
P.S.
Not all organizations provide free track time to instructors. Some regions are too small and barely make it hosting an event so they count on instructor volunteers as well.
When an instructor decides to solo me and I explicitly said this is my first day, I would rather have an instructor with me and he says no you're fine on your own, I do blame the instructor. Same goes for my second DE with the instructor wanted off to go to the track on his own.
I know they don't always get free track time, but if you're not willing to do it properly, don't volunteer. That's a very bad place for half *** job.
I was concerned in all the described occasions that I was not prepared to be there on my own, hence my retiring for the day. How many would just wear the solo sticker as a badge of honor and just go berserk? By the way, I spun twice back to back in my 2nd session on the first day. I knew tires get hot, but I had no idea that you need to be absolutely OCD about it (which I am now). After the first one, as we do the pit drive by, the instructor didn't bother to ask about the tires. After the second spun, just after returning to the track,I decided to check it and it was a measly 48psi (!). See what I say about basic instructions? Tire pressure, slow in fast out, hydration, smooth is fast. That's not a lot to ask for.
Upon finishing that session, he decided to solo me. If I'm that bad to the point he's scared, that's exactly what he needs to tell the chair. I was left as solo in a intermediate group and knowing what I know today, I know it was very, very wrong. That repeated on the next event when the other guy made up his mind in less than a lap.
Bottom line is, leave your ego behind, believe you don't know anything and from there you build up. There is a typical learning curve and in all likelihood you're not a lost Vettel. If you want proper teaching, go to a professional school. I went to PSDS, twice and returning for a 4 day course. Comparing with volunteers is not proper or fair, but did give me perspective on how much this needs to be taken seriously.
PS- complaining to the chair did nothing. Given they are invariably best buddies, it may have quite the negative effect on your relationships.
06-18-2018, 07:06 PM
#17
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There are a lot of guys in it for the track time. And it shows by how quickly they sign people off, making future solo and advanced drivers that much more dangerous. Im cutting back if not out completely on instructing, however I end up with so many requests for ride alongs and drives in other people's cars I might as well instruct. I started instructing about 4 years ago after 6 years on track. Took some learning, but transition is pretty smooth if you communicate effectively. Just have to learn to abbreviate and get points across quickly.
06-18-2018, 07:32 PM
#18
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John Mclane - Not to necessarily poke someone in the eye but it would be nice to know where you had such a bad experience. In our region I couldn't sign you off solo on the first day if I wanted, nor could I ever get you soloed if you had spun around twice, our CI's simply wouldn't allow it. I've run with quite a few different PCA regions and while the people are always different the basic framework is the same and most are great instructors.
Sorry you had a bad experience but PCA National tries hard to implement systemic programs to ensure consistency across the zones and regions.
As for the Op. There should be someone in your club that is responsible for the Instructor Candidate (IC) program. Just ask around, most likely that person or another Chief Instructor already know you (assuming you are already in a solo group by now - you obviosly can't instruct if you are still being instructed
). If they were expecting you they will start you, if not they will recommend you get a little more seat time.
Our club has IC's run at least 5 seperate days of 'role playing' (you go out in Green or Blue in the right seat as an instructor and work with your student, who is an instructor playing a student role), plus classroom, plus a mentor for the final official test day, and then a PCA National instructor to evaluate you for your final test / checkout ride. This past season we had about a dozen IC's, two of those were given students at the next DE. Later on more and more came online as their IC training continued (they needed additional training).
Point to be made for John Mclane and OP: There is a system in place, just ask to get in, and realize you will be taught how to instruct when they think you are ready to instruct.
Sorry you had a bad experience but PCA National tries hard to implement systemic programs to ensure consistency across the zones and regions.
As for the Op. There should be someone in your club that is responsible for the Instructor Candidate (IC) program. Just ask around, most likely that person or another Chief Instructor already know you (assuming you are already in a solo group by now - you obviosly can't instruct if you are still being instructed
). If they were expecting you they will start you, if not they will recommend you get a little more seat time.Our club has IC's run at least 5 seperate days of 'role playing' (you go out in Green or Blue in the right seat as an instructor and work with your student, who is an instructor playing a student role), plus classroom, plus a mentor for the final official test day, and then a PCA National instructor to evaluate you for your final test / checkout ride. This past season we had about a dozen IC's, two of those were given students at the next DE. Later on more and more came online as their IC training continued (they needed additional training).
Point to be made for John Mclane and OP: There is a system in place, just ask to get in, and realize you will be taught how to instruct when they think you are ready to instruct.
06-18-2018, 08:03 PM
#19
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@John Mclane - you didn't indicate what PCA Region ran the DEs at which you found substandard instructors. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who'd like to know, if just to add credibility to your account. However, the treatment you describe was obviously unacceptable and unlike any I have seen at any PCA DE I have attended. In my Region, as DE co-chair, I'd want to know about bad behavior by an instructor. We read every evaluation and there's no negative consequence for a critical review. Instructors here who are in it primarily to save a buck on track time don't last. From my experience the vast majority of volunteer PCA instructors are well trained, experienced, serious and dedicated professionals with a passion for the sport they want to share. To do that they are willing to accept the obvious risks for realistically no tangible benefit.
To the OP, when you feel your driving skill set is at or close to the instructors in your PCA region and if you believe you have the appropriate mental attitude and the ability to teach, talk to your CDI or DE Chair about instructing. Most regions are anxious to develop new instructors. Then look for a PCA Instructor Training School (ITS) in your area and jump in. HPDE instructing is a most gratifying endeavor for those who have the right stuff.
To the OP, when you feel your driving skill set is at or close to the instructors in your PCA region and if you believe you have the appropriate mental attitude and the ability to teach, talk to your CDI or DE Chair about instructing. Most regions are anxious to develop new instructors. Then look for a PCA Instructor Training School (ITS) in your area and jump in. HPDE instructing is a most gratifying endeavor for those who have the right stuff.
06-18-2018, 08:36 PM
#20
When an instructor decides to solo me and I explicitly said this is my first day, I would rather have an instructor with me and he says no you're fine on your own, I do blame the instructor. Same goes for my second DE with the instructor wanted off to go to the track on his own.
I was concerned in all the described occasions that I was not prepared to be there on my own, hence my retiring for the day. How many would just wear the solo sticker as a badge of honor and just go berserk? By the way, I spun twice back to back in my 2nd session on the first day. I knew tires get hot, but I had no idea that you need to be absolutely OCD about it (which I am now). After the first one, as we do the pit drive by, the instructor didn't bother to ask about the tires. After the second spun, just after returning to the track,I decided to check it and it was a measly 48psi (!). See what I say about basic instructions? Tire pressure, slow in fast out, hydration, smooth is fast. That's not a lot to ask for.
Upon finishing that session, he decided to solo me. If I'm that bad to the point he's scared, that's exactly what he needs to tell the chair. I was left as solo in a intermediate group and knowing what I know today, I know it was very, very wrong. That repeated on the next event when the other guy made up his mind in less than a lap.
PS- complaining to the chair did nothing. Given they are invariably best buddies, it may have quite the negative effect on your relationships.
I was concerned in all the described occasions that I was not prepared to be there on my own, hence my retiring for the day. How many would just wear the solo sticker as a badge of honor and just go berserk? By the way, I spun twice back to back in my 2nd session on the first day. I knew tires get hot, but I had no idea that you need to be absolutely OCD about it (which I am now). After the first one, as we do the pit drive by, the instructor didn't bother to ask about the tires. After the second spun, just after returning to the track,I decided to check it and it was a measly 48psi (!). See what I say about basic instructions? Tire pressure, slow in fast out, hydration, smooth is fast. That's not a lot to ask for.
Upon finishing that session, he decided to solo me. If I'm that bad to the point he's scared, that's exactly what he needs to tell the chair. I was left as solo in a intermediate group and knowing what I know today, I know it was very, very wrong. That repeated on the next event when the other guy made up his mind in less than a lap.
PS- complaining to the chair did nothing. Given they are invariably best buddies, it may have quite the negative effect on your relationships.
As others have stated the only one that really can solo you on own recognizance is the CDI. In most other instances a check ride from a different instructor is preferred as outlined in the promotion criteria
In regards to your example of spinning and tire pressure; tire pressure can be the obvious answer. But contributing factors could be the tires themselves, the track surface, application of gas in an area, etc. Or a combination of all.
Also on your assumption of the CDI-instructor relationship I say you are off base. Most organizations/regions want people to come back and take feedback seriously.
06-19-2018, 08:40 AM
#21
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As requested previously please identify the organization and/or region that did that.
As others have stated the only one that really can solo you on own recognizance is the CDI. In most other instances a check ride from a different instructor is preferred as outlined in the promotion criteria
In regards to your example of spinning and tire pressure; tire pressure can be the obvious answer. But contributing factors could be the tires themselves, the track surface, application of gas in an area, etc. Or a combination of all.
Also on your assumption of the CDI-instructor relationship I say you are off base. Most organizations/regions want people to come back and take feedback seriously.
As others have stated the only one that really can solo you on own recognizance is the CDI. In most other instances a check ride from a different instructor is preferred as outlined in the promotion criteria
In regards to your example of spinning and tire pressure; tire pressure can be the obvious answer. But contributing factors could be the tires themselves, the track surface, application of gas in an area, etc. Or a combination of all.
Also on your assumption of the CDI-instructor relationship I say you are off base. Most organizations/regions want people to come back and take feedback seriously.
06-19-2018, 08:51 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
I didn't want coaching, that is something mentioned by some other PCA members as an alternate for more in depth learning. I don't think it would work unless hiring professionals. Keyword is hiring, so it's costly.
When an instructor decides to solo me and I explicitly said this is my first day, I would rather have an instructor with me and he says no you're fine on your own, I do blame the instructor. Same goes for my second DE with the instructor wanted off to go to the track on his own.
I know they don't always get free track time, but if you're not willing to do it properly, don't volunteer. That's a very bad place for half *** job.
I was concerned in all the described occasions that I was not prepared to be there on my own, hence my retiring for the day. How many would just wear the solo sticker as a badge of honor and just go berserk? By the way, I spun twice back to back in my 2nd session on the first day. I knew tires get hot, but I had no idea that you need to be absolutely OCD about it (which I am now). After the first one, as we do the pit drive by, the instructor didn't bother to ask about the tires. After the second spun, just after returning to the track,I decided to check it and it was a measly 48psi (!). See what I say about basic instructions? Tire pressure, slow in fast out, hydration, smooth is fast. That's not a lot to ask for.
Upon finishing that session, he decided to solo me. If I'm that bad to the point he's scared, that's exactly what he needs to tell the chair. I was left as solo in a intermediate group and knowing what I know today, I know it was very, very wrong. That repeated on the next event when the other guy made up his mind in less than a lap.
Bottom line is, leave your ego behind, believe you don't know anything and from there you build up. There is a typical learning curve and in all likelihood you're not a lost Vettel. If you want proper teaching, go to a professional school. I went to PSDS, twice and returning for a 4 day course. Comparing with volunteers is not proper or fair, but did give me perspective on how much this needs to be taken seriously.
PS- complaining to the chair did nothing. Given they are invariably best buddies, it may have quite the negative effect on your relationships.
When an instructor decides to solo me and I explicitly said this is my first day, I would rather have an instructor with me and he says no you're fine on your own, I do blame the instructor. Same goes for my second DE with the instructor wanted off to go to the track on his own.
I know they don't always get free track time, but if you're not willing to do it properly, don't volunteer. That's a very bad place for half *** job.
I was concerned in all the described occasions that I was not prepared to be there on my own, hence my retiring for the day. How many would just wear the solo sticker as a badge of honor and just go berserk? By the way, I spun twice back to back in my 2nd session on the first day. I knew tires get hot, but I had no idea that you need to be absolutely OCD about it (which I am now). After the first one, as we do the pit drive by, the instructor didn't bother to ask about the tires. After the second spun, just after returning to the track,I decided to check it and it was a measly 48psi (!). See what I say about basic instructions? Tire pressure, slow in fast out, hydration, smooth is fast. That's not a lot to ask for.
Upon finishing that session, he decided to solo me. If I'm that bad to the point he's scared, that's exactly what he needs to tell the chair. I was left as solo in a intermediate group and knowing what I know today, I know it was very, very wrong. That repeated on the next event when the other guy made up his mind in less than a lap.
Bottom line is, leave your ego behind, believe you don't know anything and from there you build up. There is a typical learning curve and in all likelihood you're not a lost Vettel. If you want proper teaching, go to a professional school. I went to PSDS, twice and returning for a 4 day course. Comparing with volunteers is not proper or fair, but did give me perspective on how much this needs to be taken seriously.
PS- complaining to the chair did nothing. Given they are invariably best buddies, it may have quite the negative effect on your relationships.
John PM sent.
Aaron
PCA National Treasurer
06-19-2018, 12:38 PM
#23
He also indicated this happened 3 times:
........My first DE, this so called instructor solo (yellow group) me at the end of the 3rd session.
......
The next Event the instructor went over ONE lap with me on my second DE and said I was fine to go by myself. I told him I'm not confident on being there by myself but he wouldn't budge. I had to drop him off so he could have his car ready for his session. That day I searched for other instructors available and there was no one. I then went home, feeling very cheated as I paid for that DE.
......
On another track (fast one where people frequently crash), the instructor was dealing with 3 students in different groups/days. So there was little to no feedback after the session as the guy had to hurry to the next one. That one too solo me at the end of the 3rd session.
......
The next Event the instructor went over ONE lap with me on my second DE and said I was fine to go by myself. I told him I'm not confident on being there by myself but he wouldn't budge. I had to drop him off so he could have his car ready for his session. That day I searched for other instructors available and there was no one. I then went home, feeling very cheated as I paid for that DE.
......
On another track (fast one where people frequently crash), the instructor was dealing with 3 students in different groups/days. So there was little to no feedback after the session as the guy had to hurry to the next one. That one too solo me at the end of the 3rd session.
Its obvious his expectations weren't met, but I find it hard to believe that 3 tries produce 3 bad results.
06-19-2018, 02:50 PM
#24
Originally Posted by ExMB
While that may seem admirable you have to look at it from the other side. Coming onto a forum and criticizing instructors and the organization/region. He doesn't show a location or identify them nor does he indicate how long ago this occurred. That leaves no room for newbies to avoid that organization/region or for a defense by that organization/region (if so desired).
He also indicated this happened 3 times:Are these events all with the same organization/region?
Its obvious his expectations weren't met, but I find it hard to believe that 3 tries produce 3 bad results.
He also indicated this happened 3 times:Are these events all with the same organization/region?
Its obvious his expectations weren't met, but I find it hard to believe that 3 tries produce 3 bad results.
06-20-2018, 09:20 AM
#25
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Someone I know who has done DE events for 2 years has expressed an interest in instructing
I think this is a great idea.
If the car hobby is indeed shrinking & dying and fewer people reach higher levels of hardcore track racing,
I do wonder sometimes what the inflow vs outflow pipeline looks like. At some point, will be run out of instructors?
To teach a green DE about the line, flags, looking ahead, etc one probably does not need to be a master Formula 1 racer.
So, when is it appropriate for a person to pursue becoming an instructor? What are some of the faster progressions you've heard of ?
I think this is a great idea.
If the car hobby is indeed shrinking & dying and fewer people reach higher levels of hardcore track racing,
I do wonder sometimes what the inflow vs outflow pipeline looks like. At some point, will be run out of instructors?
To teach a green DE about the line, flags, looking ahead, etc one probably does not need to be a master Formula 1 racer.
So, when is it appropriate for a person to pursue becoming an instructor? What are some of the faster progressions you've heard of ?
Some people can become competent instructors within a year of starting DE, others will take longer, and some just aren't cut out for instructing, no matter how much they want to do it.
Instructing can be a very rewarding experience (one of the most rewarding things I've done), but the rewards are somewhat different than the rewards of driving.
06-20-2018, 10:05 AM
#26
RL Community Team
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Originally Posted by Manifold
From a driving standpoint, an instructor needs to be a good driver (by DE standards), with at least a few dozen track days of experience, preferably at a variety of tracks, and experience in a variety of cars is helpful too. Beyond that, an instructor needs to be motivated by a sincere desire to help others learn while having fun in the process, needs to be a good communicator in and out of the car (experience outside DE in leadership, management, coaching, consulting, etc. is usually helpful), and needs to be a good risk manager. Also, don't forget that instructing means spending more time in the car, and less time resting out of the car, so the physical demands shouldn't be overlooked. IMO it's important to go through a good instructor training program before instructing for real.
Some people can become competent instructors within a year of starting DE, others will take longer, and some just aren't cut out for instructing, no matter how much they want to do it.
Instructing can be a very rewarding experience (one of the most rewarding things I've done), but the rewards are somewhat different than the rewards of driving.
Some people can become competent instructors within a year of starting DE, others will take longer, and some just aren't cut out for instructing, no matter how much they want to do it.
Instructing can be a very rewarding experience (one of the most rewarding things I've done), but the rewards are somewhat different than the rewards of driving.