PCA Requires H&NR in DE cars w Harness Jan 2019
04-29-2018, 08:54 PM
#46
Instructor
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why? Please do not take this as challenging your knowledge or experience, I am just trying to understand.
As a green student, I am largely on information overload anyway. Adding in abilities, braking points, turn in points, track out points, etc of a totally different car from mine, likely on very different tires, suspension, brakes, etc, seems to me to just confuse things, and at worse lull me into a false sense of security that I can the same limits on my car (15 yrs old, on street tires and brakes). I guess I might understand it better for advanced level students, but not greens, or even yellows.
As a green student, I am largely on information overload anyway. Adding in abilities, braking points, turn in points, track out points, etc of a totally different car from mine, likely on very different tires, suspension, brakes, etc, seems to me to just confuse things, and at worse lull me into a false sense of security that I can the same limits on my car (15 yrs old, on street tires and brakes). I guess I might understand it better for advanced level students, but not greens, or even yellows.
Also, don't get hung up on the nuances of car vs. car. When an instructor is taking you out to show you something it's not going to be that variable. Typically, it's "put the car here", "watch where and how much I turn", "this is what smooth inputs look like", etc. Unless you're working with a real professional coach, the purpose of the drive isn't to show you where the limit of the car is--it's to build some basic skills.
04-29-2018, 09:11 PM
#47
The Penguin King
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Quite simply, I'm not comfortable doing it. Just not being paid enough to assume any responsibility for the car...
Also, don't get hung up on the nuances of car vs. car. When an instructor is taking you out to show you something it's not going to be that variable. Typically, it's "put the car here", "watch where and how much I turn", "this is what smooth inputs look like", etc. Unless you're working with a real professional coach, the purpose of the drive isn't to show you where the limit of the car is--it's to build some basic skills.
Also, don't get hung up on the nuances of car vs. car. When an instructor is taking you out to show you something it's not going to be that variable. Typically, it's "put the car here", "watch where and how much I turn", "this is what smooth inputs look like", etc. Unless you're working with a real professional coach, the purpose of the drive isn't to show you where the limit of the car is--it's to build some basic skills.
i hate to say it, but most of the time when I see instructors driving a student’s car, I suspect it’s because they want to drive that particular car. The ones I see do it, do it regularly, and try to get students with hot cars. It’s a really bad idea that exposes both the instructor and the DE organization to liability. As previously mentioned, things can go wrong even at lower pace. Fluid on the track, tire that goes bad, or an engine that decides to let go are things that come e to mind.
04-29-2018, 11:04 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
I don't understand why an instructor would be comfortable sitting in a student car's passenger seat, but not comfortable driving the car. You're indemnified by the club (last time I checked). Yeah, there are always things out of our control, but that's life on the track. You really believe your collective *** is better protected sitting in the passenger seat? If you're uncomfortable driving the car, either get a different student / car or slow down 10 - 25%. The students will learn just as much, they're in green after all, you don't need to go ***** out to give them a top-notch learning experience.
I am going to disagree with National's decision until I hear a compelling reason for it: what problem are we solving, exactly? Where are the statistics backing up the decision? How many injuries would have been avoided, lives saved had this policy been in effect say five years ago? Safety is a long slope, I see PCA sliding a little farther down it each year, and these kinds of rules make it harder for young folks (ie, early in career, not rolling in disposable income) to participate. How far are we from banning cars without ABS and other modern safety devices? This is headed toward us becoming a club for rich old people who can show up with a fully prep'ed track car and all that goes with it. Damned if I want to be stuck with a trackful of old farts like myself, pumped full of Geritol and pitting every three laps to take a leak.
I am going to disagree with National's decision until I hear a compelling reason for it: what problem are we solving, exactly? Where are the statistics backing up the decision? How many injuries would have been avoided, lives saved had this policy been in effect say five years ago? Safety is a long slope, I see PCA sliding a little farther down it each year, and these kinds of rules make it harder for young folks (ie, early in career, not rolling in disposable income) to participate. How far are we from banning cars without ABS and other modern safety devices? This is headed toward us becoming a club for rich old people who can show up with a fully prep'ed track car and all that goes with it. Damned if I want to be stuck with a trackful of old farts like myself, pumped full of Geritol and pitting every three laps to take a leak.
04-29-2018, 11:37 PM
#49
This!
i hate to say it, but most of the time when I see instructors driving a student’s car, I suspect it’s because they want to drive that particular car. The ones I see do it, do it regularly, and try to get students with hot cars. It’s a really bad idea that exposes both the instructor and the DE organization to liability. As previously mentioned, things can go wrong even at lower pace. Fluid on the track, tire that goes bad, or an engine that decides to let go are things that come e to mind.
Two weeks later, on the first session of the day at MSRH, after 5 or so laps on the cool down his motor decided to drop a valve and kablammo! I was right behind him when it happened and I thanked God right then and there that I did not drive the car in the previous 20 or so laps before this happened. It would have been at the very least awkward - and this was a "cheap" car with less than $5K in damage which included rebuilding a junkyard motor. Shutter to think of a $50K+ Porsche.
I've hit coolant/oil and paid the price with my own car. I've hit the wall due to mechanical in my own car and by a miracle didn't damage it - don't want to risk it with someone else's car.
Frankly, if it is merely a positioning thing, I'd rather touch the outside of the students right hand to guide them after explaining my touch is only a guide and they always have control of the wheel. I've never felt driving a student's car was necessary. Most of the time they want rides with me it is for an "E ticket" ride - sure it is a bit educational, but come on - and if they want that they will need a HANS.
-Mike
04-30-2018, 12:18 AM
#50
Instructor
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't understand why an instructor would be comfortable sitting in a student car's passenger seat, but not comfortable driving the car. You're indemnified by the club (last time I checked). Yeah, there are always things out of our control, but that's life on the track. You really believe your collective *** is better protected sitting in the passenger seat? If you're uncomfortable driving the car, either get a different student / car or slow down 10 - 25%. The students will learn just as much, they're in green after all, you don't need to go ***** out to give them a top-notch learning experience.
Another perspective on the same question... I had an instructor ask to drive my car back when I was at my second event in the Green group at WGI. He immediately turned off traction control and drove at a pace that blinded me to all but terror. I don't remember how many laps we did or anything other than praying he wasn't going to F up my car the whole time. Honestly, knowing what I now do, I can't say if he was trying to show off, show me something useful, or just wanted to screw around in my car. I can't even remember the guy's name--I'll always think of him as "that as****e who thrashed my car around". I don't ever want one of my students to remember me as I do that guy.
04-30-2018, 08:19 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
I am going to disagree with National's decision until I hear a compelling reason for it: what problem are we solving, exactly? Where are the statistics backing up the decision? How many injuries would have been avoided, lives saved had this policy been in effect say five years ago? Safety is a long slope, I see PCA sliding a little farther down it each year, and these kinds of rules make it harder for young folks (ie, early in career, not rolling in disposable income) to participate. How far are we from banning cars without ABS and other modern safety devices? This is headed toward us becoming a club for rich old people who can show up with a fully prep'ed track car and all that goes with it. Damned if I want to be stuck with a trackful of old farts like myself, pumped full of Geritol and pitting every three laps to take a leak.
The big controversy here is when an instructor with a 6 point harness (who also uses a HANS) takes the Green student (who has no HANS because he uses the OEM 3 point in his car) for a ride.
04-30-2018, 09:09 AM
#52
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,449
Received 3,237 Likes
on
1,576 Posts
I don't understand why an instructor would be comfortable sitting in a student car's passenger seat, but not comfortable driving the car. You're indemnified by the club (last time I checked). Yeah, there are always things out of our control, but that's life on the track. You really believe your collective *** is better protected sitting in the passenger seat? If you're uncomfortable driving the car, either get a different student / car or slow down 10 - 25%. The students will learn just as much, they're in green after all, you don't need to go ***** out to give them a top-notch learning experience.
I am going to disagree with National's decision until I hear a compelling reason for it: what problem are we solving, exactly? Where are the statistics backing up the decision? How many injuries would have been avoided, lives saved had this policy been in effect say five years ago? Safety is a long slope, I see PCA sliding a little farther down it each year, and these kinds of rules make it harder for young folks (ie, early in career, not rolling in disposable income) to participate. How far are we from banning cars without ABS and other modern safety devices? This is headed toward us becoming a club for rich old people who can show up with a fully prep'ed track car and all that goes with it. Damned if I want to be stuck with a trackful of old farts like myself, pumped full of Geritol and pitting every three laps to take a leak.
I am going to disagree with National's decision until I hear a compelling reason for it: what problem are we solving, exactly? Where are the statistics backing up the decision? How many injuries would have been avoided, lives saved had this policy been in effect say five years ago? Safety is a long slope, I see PCA sliding a little farther down it each year, and these kinds of rules make it harder for young folks (ie, early in career, not rolling in disposable income) to participate. How far are we from banning cars without ABS and other modern safety devices? This is headed toward us becoming a club for rich old people who can show up with a fully prep'ed track car and all that goes with it. Damned if I want to be stuck with a trackful of old farts like myself, pumped full of Geritol and pitting every three laps to take a leak.
Are you really complaining that you need a certain amount of money to drive with the PORSCHE Club of America? Sorry, but it does cost a certain amount of money to drive on the track whether it is a Porsche or VW GTI.
What we are talking about here are people who went through the expense of putting in race seats and 5 point harnesses. If you have money for that you have money for a HANS.
It's not necessarily about legal liability.
04-30-2018, 10:39 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
So the club will cover me if I wad up a students car? Great! How about all the heart ache and mental *** pain I'll get from the students lawyer? Just because the club "covers" me doesn't mean its going to be an easy experience to go through.
There's very little up side from driving a students car, anything I can show them in their car, I can show them in mine. In my car, I have no liability.
Pretty easy choice there...
There's very little up side from driving a students car, anything I can show them in their car, I can show them in mine. In my car, I have no liability.
Pretty easy choice there...
04-30-2018, 10:52 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
One of the organizations I instruct with has a tradition of instructors showing the student the lap in the student's car the first few laps of the first session if the student hasn't ever been to that track before. It's an added risk but we do it at just above parade lap pace and of all the risks we assume on a track this one doesn't move my needle at all. I've had friends ask me to drive their car at speed but we have a big boy conversation about the bad things that can happen and I trust them to understand the risks involved.
04-30-2018, 11:25 AM
#55
Rennlist Member
In that situation, assuming the instructors car has a passenger seat, you could do the exact same thing, but with absolutely no risk/liability. I just don't see the goal, you can easily show a student the line without having to drive their car. You can take them all out in a truck/SUV/Van and do the same thing.
04-30-2018, 11:35 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
We had an instructor wad up our car to the tune of $20K. He told me he ran out of talent, and then told me to drop dead about the damage. So we don't drive student cars other than 2 parade laps at 2/10.
I thoroughly understand the physical danger of a high G stop while being strapped in, upright, in harnesses, and of course I always wear my h&n. I know that crap happens at saucer speed as of as cup speed. And I understand that this rule is meant to protect me as a driver and instructor, my peers, my students, and our club.
But, I'm not thrilled about the change.
Like all rules and regulations that have to cover all circumstances for all individuals, there are unintended consequences. I find that putting my novice student in my passenger seat (yes, un-hans restrained in my 6 point harnesses) and driving at a moderate speed to be one of the most fruitful and important DE teaching experiences. If that's not a possibility, maybe I'll stop instructing.(That would certainly reduce my own risks and liability!)
I'm guessing it's inevitable that fire suits will be the next best practice upgrade.
I thoroughly understand the physical danger of a high G stop while being strapped in, upright, in harnesses, and of course I always wear my h&n. I know that crap happens at saucer speed as of as cup speed. And I understand that this rule is meant to protect me as a driver and instructor, my peers, my students, and our club.
But, I'm not thrilled about the change.
Like all rules and regulations that have to cover all circumstances for all individuals, there are unintended consequences. I find that putting my novice student in my passenger seat (yes, un-hans restrained in my 6 point harnesses) and driving at a moderate speed to be one of the most fruitful and important DE teaching experiences. If that's not a possibility, maybe I'll stop instructing.(That would certainly reduce my own risks and liability!)
I'm guessing it's inevitable that fire suits will be the next best practice upgrade.
04-30-2018, 11:43 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
I'm not sure you're getting the full picture. This is ONLY for those people who have installed a 5 or 6 point harness and are not using a HANS. PCA is requiring those people to have a HANS in order to get onto the track. This has nothing to do with Green students driving their cars with the OEM 3 point harness. There have been many studies on this, scientific research with high speed photography, and sadly several drivers have died as a result of not using a HANS when they should have.
I do understand this, thanks for checking. I also think a HANS device is a smart idea and use one myself. What I disagree with is the piecemeal ratcheting up of safety requirements without good statistics (at least ones we've all seen). Yes, several drivers have been injured or died where a HANS device could have reduced or perhaps eliminated their injuries. Without wanting to sound insensitive, I question whether the number is significant. Other drivers have been injured or killed despite full-on safety gear. Do we all then stay home, safe from roll-overs, asteroids, and lightning strikes? What is the standard for making these kinds of decisions? I don't think PCA National has one.
I don't have a cage in my (street-able) car, have used a B-K harness bar for some years. A PCA region last year objected to my use of a five-point harness without at least a roll bar in the car. The fear is that in a roll-over, the roof *could* collapse, and with me securely located courtesy of my harness and (relatively recently mandated) race seat, I would be at risk of injury that could be avoided (one hopes) by moving my body out of vertical. God bless them for this concern, it *could* indeed happen. Okay, so now to use a race harness, I need a roll bar or cage, I need a HANS device, I need a race seat... What's next? We can play the "what if" game indefinitely here, and it gets us to full prep. My point is that the odds are very, very small, PCA hasn't shared and probably doesn't have statistics to back up these decisions, and I am okay taking these small risks. We all assume risks when we drive on track (perhaps greater risks driving to and from the track...), and that's as it should be. We sign waivers, we make informed decisions as to risk.
Now let's talk about some of the really stupid sh*t that PCA National doesn't pay attention to. Tracks with no / inadequate run-off: how many lives could be saved, injuries avoided, cars preserved, if we required FIA quality run-offs at all tracks. Ooops, there goes just about every track in the Northeast: say goodbye to Watkins Glen, Palmer (do you like large rock faces?), Lime Rock, NHMS, Thomson. Tech inspections: PCA has covered their (our) asses legally by kicking out the hobbyist inspectors who actually know the cars and requiring inspections from dealers or indy shops, How many dealer techs could even pick a 944 or 914 out of a line-up, let alone check their Achilles heels? I sent a student home a few years ago when I sat in his driver's seat, it moved around, I found it secured by maybe two bolts where six should have been, and that turned out to be just the tip of the iceberg. He had a tech form signed by his shop (I checked). Three-point harnesses: wait, so I can run with a forty-year-old three-point factory harness in an advanced group, but I can't run a race harness that's more than five years old, and I need a HANS, and maybe a roll bar or cage, definitely a race seat... The list goes on.
My overarching belief is that PCA National could do us all a lot of good by a) getting out of the business of ratcheting up safety requirements piecemeal, b) helping drivers make better, informed decisions about safety through education and communication. We *could* take safety to a new level by adopting the standards and practices in place with SCCA (download the GCRs, it's free), FIA, and similar organizations. But I don't believe that's what National or our members want, and it would drastically reduce or kill HPDE for most regions, maybe all. The sensible alternative is a combination of selective requirements (helmet, tech inspection) and education / communication ("here's why you should consider a HANS device"). Cheers,
Last edited by KevinGross; 04-30-2018 at 01:17 PM.
04-30-2018, 11:46 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
In that situation, assuming the instructors car has a passenger seat, you could do the exact same thing, but with absolutely no risk/liability. I just don't see the goal, you can easily show a student the line without having to drive their car. You can take them all out in a truck/SUV/Van and do the same thing.
I don't agree that switching to my car (coincidentally, with harnesses and students with no HNR) absolves me of any potential liability. My least liability concern is a wadded up car we walk away from.
04-30-2018, 12:07 PM
#59
A hans is the cost of 1-2 tires or a set of brake pads now, ~300 bucks. I bought a spare for passengers. Use this as an opportunity to get a more versatile HNR system that you can use with a 3-point when you need it. I don't think the HNR has to be the exact same design as what you wear in the driver's seat of your car. I won't let anyone ride with me who is not wearing a hans / HNR. Modern cars, even SUVs, are doubling the average kinetic energy on the track compared to 10 years ago.
04-30-2018, 12:09 PM
#60
Instructor
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Southeastern PA
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In that situation, assuming the instructors car has a passenger seat, you could do the exact same thing, but with absolutely no risk/liability. I just don't see the goal, you can easily show a student the line without having to drive their car. You can take them all out in a truck/SUV/Van and do the same thing.
Unfortunately, I see more parade laps in our schedules unless there's an exception written in for instructors taking students out in the lower run groups on the HANS requirement. Hopefully this will be considered, as there is a lot of value in taking a measured approach with this rule.