will968

Should be 1/16 total - 1/32 each side. I don't think that's causing your problems but you might to change that next time.

noturavgm

I don't think there is a "should" when it comes to alignments. For reference I've run it at 0 front toe with similar results.

1/32nd wont make a bit of difference once rolling resistance is in play anyhow. Who knows what down-the-road toe actually is, even with poly bushings. Probably trends out as FCABs deflect slightly. Unless you have spherical/solid bushings everywhere its probably a waste of time trying to dial it in THAT close.



Another data point that I didn't mention. Tires are 245 section on 8.5" wheels. So sidewall is pretty vertical at rest.

noturavgm

Control arm angle, general cornering attitude at Palmer, front view cornering attitude at NJMP with amount of front sidewall flex visible.

will968

No, but there are best practices for getting your car down the road faster.
Good luck with your DE car bro

noturavgm

You're honestly gonna sit there and say in a production based sedan an alignment difference of 1/32nd is the delta between "best practices" and simply incorrect? Please.

RallyeChris

Looks like you have a pretty standard E36 track set-up. I'd say the dampers need a refresh. Maybe set the rear bar to middle. I don't have experience with the tires you are using, but perhaps go with something that has stiffer sidewalls. I used BFG R1s on my last E36. Running NT01s on my 964 now, and on my previous Z06. Great tire for those who drive to the track and don't swap wheels/tires at the event.

TXE36

I went out last night and grabbed a lower control arm picture of my M3 street car and it looks just like yours - parallel to the ground. That car has not been tracked in years, but the last time it was it was fine. I'll look at the track car this weekend when I pull it out of the garage. Also, your cornering picture looks really good - the outside is planted, the outside wheels look vertical, the front inside is just off the ground and the tires look normal.

Maybe it is *cough-cough* your driving? However, before fully going there, I don't necessarily believe that a setup for excellent track handling will get you maximized tire wear on all four corners. Sure, a setup that feels good and wears evenly is good, however a setup that feels good with a bit of uneven wear may not be bad. The setup is a compromise to extract maximum grip on average for a given track. If you consider the picture above and make the corner the whole track (a constant right turning carousel) you are going to wear out the outside of the left front tire and the inside of the right front tire (well, if it ever touches the ground). This wear does not mean the setup is wrong for that hypothetical track.

Just how beat up are the outside shoulders getting? Perhaps that is just the first place the wear shows and the only remedy is more tire rotation.

-Mike

BTW, that is a sharp looking M3 :-).

mark kibort

can you elaborate what you saw and why it happened? I'm wondering if some of my handling issues might be due to this phenom.

TXE36

The proper stance for an E36 M3 is the rear lower than the front, perhaps VR can elaborate. I suspect the reason for this is one wants the car as low as possible and it is possible to lower the rear ride height further than the front w/o compromising negative camber.

All I know is I tried lowering the front of my M3 further and it pushed like crazy. I had to enter turns very slow to keep the car from understeering. The lower control arm in the front pivots on a arch defined by the inner and outer ball joints. If the lower control arm slopes away from the frame such that the outer ball joint is closer to the ground than the inner ball joint, then as the suspension compresses the outer joint will move up and out relative to the inner ball joint, thus negative camber will increase under compression. If the outer ball joint is higher from the ground than the inner ball joint at rest, then as the suspension compresses the outer ball join will move up and in relative to the inner ball joint - thus less negative camber will decrease under compression.

IIRC I had the front suspension so slow the lower control arms went up from the inside to the outside. The OPs look level, my street car looks level, and I suspect the track car is level. IMO, this is okay.

I'm thinking the OP is just wearing tires more than he wants too :-).

-Mike

noturavgm

I believe the chassis should still fundamentally have some fwd rake in it, however because of the way the E36 fenders openings are shaped the usual measurements are "lower" in the rear when going from center of fender to center of wheel. Rear will just look lower because it is tucking more tire.

997_rich

Nice M3!

Ideally video is to better assess. One photo can look pretty good mid corner but it could be that you're turning in too aggressively without the car responding. This looks like a mid-late corner photo where you're already going to the power. You're right, I don't see the car mid corner doing a 3 wheel thing (which might be a front spring too hard or back too soft). But since the rears are wearing even and the outer shoulder of the fronts are getting trashed it really points to driving approach or sub-optimal setup.

Another perhaps another more scientific way to attack: get a tire pyrometer and start taking tire temps across all tires at the outer shoulder, mid, and inner shoulder. Is the middle of both front tires cooler than the outer shoulder? that might mean you need more camber. If you're already at very high camber you might be over-driving the front end of the car.

One question that seems pretty easy to answer is your first one: what is the line between too much trail braking? - if the front isn't responding to your input it's too much input or too much trail. Start with no trail and then keep adding in progressive laps until you feel the response fall off.

noturavgm

Thanks

I believe the front view photo is exiting T1 at Thunderbolt so yes I would be back on the throttle. The side view is probably mostly steady state.

I looked back at a photo I have of the right hand side tires I took off of my car last October after an open track day at Palmer. The rear has more uniform wear but it is still more tapered than I recall. Inside has maybe 2/3nds, middle rib has maybe 1/32nd, outside has no grooves visible for the better part of an inch off the shoulder. The front tire has roughly the same amount left except the center rib wear is more angled, and the outer shoulder has no tread visible now maybe 1.5" from the sidewall with a more grainy look to it and is visibly more rounded.

I definitely don't have an aggressive turn-in input, but that doesn't mean I am not using the front to scrub speed on entry or getting on the throttle with too much angle in the wheel on exit. Who knows. Maybe I need to find someone who races these cars to drive it around and tell me what he/she is feeling. I am guessing its more me than the setup

Next event I'll get some better vid.

TXE36

Just some data points. The ride height and alignment is the same as when I got the car - the handling is flawless. The rear does appear to be lower, fenders notwithstanding. The street car is a different M3 with PSS9s. The race car has Motons and true rear coilovers. I don't think it is possible to the rear of an M3 that low using the stock spring perches.

-Mike

noturavgm

Holy ****, that is far and away the largest difference in static F/R ride heights I've seen on an E36 track car. That rear is LOW. Mine isn't even that low with a floor jack, tools, jack stands, spares, and the rest of the crap I bring with me!

TXE36

She be slammed.

-Mike