School a rookie on passing.
04-22-2018, 11:59 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Rcaecraft takes time (years) to develop. Just because you can run a faster lap time doesn't mean you can get by a well driven car in front.
From what I saw in the video, you kill your entire lap down the hill...pretty much every time. You were off throttle at and even after the apex. You need to be full throttle past the apex for sure, and in a lower power car, should be at least 50% throttle at the apex. The best passing opportunity at Lime Rock is into T1. It's nearly impossible to pass a similar speed car anywhere else, unless they make a mistake (at least not safely).
From what I saw in the video, you kill your entire lap down the hill...pretty much every time. You were off throttle at and even after the apex. You need to be full throttle past the apex for sure, and in a lower power car, should be at least 50% throttle at the apex. The best passing opportunity at Lime Rock is into T1. It's nearly impossible to pass a similar speed car anywhere else, unless they make a mistake (at least not safely).
04-24-2018, 12:17 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Joe, I would suggest video that also captures the rotation of the steering wheel (hands included) is extremely valuable in analyzIng areas for improvement. You can use more of the track on exit at Big Bend and the downhill by using the kerbs. It should not upset the car.
Has Simon driven the car to verify the setup has just a little understeer?
Has Simon driven the car to verify the setup has just a little understeer?
Nice good clean race weekend and good seeing you. (I started typing this when the thread was young but never finished - some overlap with Frank's comments.)
Some thoughts:
1. The misshift aside you left way too much space in front of you are the start. Roll up on the car in front of you and be aggressive at the start. If you lose positions at the start its more work to do during the race. Try to do the opposite and GAIN positions at the start.
2. You are tentative everywhere and tend to roll slowly into throttle and roll slowly out of throttle and drift into every turn. You need to roll more speed everywhere. Stay on throttle longer and get back to throttle much quicker.
3. I like your line everywhere except the uphill. You are using the DE line and usually leaving a half car length to your left which is restricting your speed. The fastest laps I have ever driven are when my car is way over the white line and I am tracking out on the dirt! You don't need to do that at this stage but you should be up at the white line which will enable you to roll speed.
4. The downhill is a great opportunity to gather speed, pull alongside the car in front, and outbrake them. There is a good deal of compression at the apex which lets you get back to full throttle - use it.
5. Same with the entry to no name. If you ever do a track walk you will notice that there is "banking" at the righthander into no name.
Bottom line - if this were a DE and I was in the 911 I am not sure I would have given you a point by because you never got close enough. Be more aggressive.
All this being said, everything you are doing now is EXACTLY what I did my first year. Forgot to shift at the start, didn't close the gap to the car in front of me, was very tentative, etc. Two things cure this - coaching and seat time.
You did well, stayed out of trouble and had fun. Just work at it and you will start passing cars left and right!
Lastly, if you sign up for a CVR DE I am happy to take you out and show you my thoughts.
Some thoughts:
1. The misshift aside you left way too much space in front of you are the start. Roll up on the car in front of you and be aggressive at the start. If you lose positions at the start its more work to do during the race. Try to do the opposite and GAIN positions at the start.
2. You are tentative everywhere and tend to roll slowly into throttle and roll slowly out of throttle and drift into every turn. You need to roll more speed everywhere. Stay on throttle longer and get back to throttle much quicker.
3. I like your line everywhere except the uphill. You are using the DE line and usually leaving a half car length to your left which is restricting your speed. The fastest laps I have ever driven are when my car is way over the white line and I am tracking out on the dirt! You don't need to do that at this stage but you should be up at the white line which will enable you to roll speed.
4. The downhill is a great opportunity to gather speed, pull alongside the car in front, and outbrake them. There is a good deal of compression at the apex which lets you get back to full throttle - use it.
5. Same with the entry to no name. If you ever do a track walk you will notice that there is "banking" at the righthander into no name.
Bottom line - if this were a DE and I was in the 911 I am not sure I would have given you a point by because you never got close enough. Be more aggressive.
All this being said, everything you are doing now is EXACTLY what I did my first year. Forgot to shift at the start, didn't close the gap to the car in front of me, was very tentative, etc. Two things cure this - coaching and seat time.
You did well, stayed out of trouble and had fun. Just work at it and you will start passing cars left and right!
Lastly, if you sign up for a CVR DE I am happy to take you out and show you my thoughts.
Wow, great advice! Thanks Todd! I went back and reread your posts from 2015 when you went to Sebring. Lot's of great advice for Rookies in that thread!
Jp
Watch this from my last race WE at road atlanta, it worth it.
From 25:30 to 30:30
Some nose to tail racing and i will pass at 30:00
You will see some HP advantage too lol
I knew i was faster in this turn than harold. So, racing is about that, seeing where your adversary is slower and time/plan that opportunity. In multicars racing, you have to position yourself and open your eyes your opportunity.
It takes pratice and somes races under your belt hehe
Watch this from my last race WE at road atlanta, it worth it.
From 25:30 to 30:30
Some nose to tail racing and i will pass at 30:00
You will see some HP advantage too lol
I knew i was faster in this turn than harold. So, racing is about that, seeing where your adversary is slower and time/plan that opportunity. In multicars racing, you have to position yourself and open your eyes your opportunity.
It takes pratice and somes races under your belt hehe
Rcaecraft takes time (years) to develop. Just because you can run a faster lap time doesn't mean you can get by a well driven car in front.
From what I saw in the video, you kill your entire lap down the hill...pretty much every time. You were off throttle at and even after the apex. You need to be full throttle past the apex for sure, and in a lower power car, should be at least 50% throttle at the apex. The best passing opportunity at Lime Rock is into T1. It's nearly impossible to pass a similar speed car anywhere else, unless they make a mistake (at least not safely).
From what I saw in the video, you kill your entire lap down the hill...pretty much every time. You were off throttle at and even after the apex. You need to be full throttle past the apex for sure, and in a lower power car, should be at least 50% throttle at the apex. The best passing opportunity at Lime Rock is into T1. It's nearly impossible to pass a similar speed car anywhere else, unless they make a mistake (at least not safely).
but I'm workin' on it.On a totally separate note I just realized that this race was my 4th successful, actually completed, and incident free PCA race so I finally get to take the X off my tail
Can't wait for the Glen!!
Last edited by JP66; 04-24-2018 at 12:37 PM.
04-24-2018, 12:26 PM
#18
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Congrats, Joe. Take that X off!
04-24-2018, 12:34 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks Peter!
You should know I have had numerous pros drive my car and I also have the data from Jim and I am as fast or faster than all of them in Big Bend and the left hander and I am certain it was the day spent with you focusing on that one piece of the puzzle that really made the difference in my developing experience. We'll have to do another day this summer or fall so you can help me "fix" another corner or two
04-24-2018, 12:57 PM
#20
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Thanks Peter!
You should know I have had numerous pros drive my car and I also have the data from Jim and I am as fast or faster than all of them in Big Bend and the left hander and I am certain it was the day spent with you focusing on that one piece of the puzzle that really made the difference in my developing experience. We'll have to do another day this summer or fall so you can help me "fix" another corner or two
You should know I have had numerous pros drive my car and I also have the data from Jim and I am as fast or faster than all of them in Big Bend and the left hander and I am certain it was the day spent with you focusing on that one piece of the puzzle that really made the difference in my developing experience. We'll have to do another day this summer or fall so you can help me "fix" another corner or two
That focus you brought to bear on that section of the course has helped you unlock your capable performance there, for sure. You did it the right way, by considering, practicing and executing a variety of different approaches and then honing the one or ones that worked.
Unfortunately, Lime Rock is not just those three corners, and you'll want to work on incrementally increasing your knowledge of the topography and physics of the four others in such a way that knowledge allows for easy "growing of a pair."
THEN, it will all come together and you'll be in the 1:00.XXX-1:01.XXX on a regular basis!After that, of course, there is the art and science of starts, passing and racecraft. But that's for another thirty page thread on RL!
Again, congrats. I saw on Race Monitor (while monitoring the progress of a few other folks I've worked with, including Jim) several 1:02.9XX's that you did and felt like you'd truly broken through a plateau!
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04-24-2018, 01:17 PM
#21
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Wow, great advice! Thanks Todd! I went back and reread your posts from 2015 when you went to Sebring. Lot's of great advice for Rookies in that thread!
On a totally separate note I just realized that this race was my 4th successful, actually completed, and incident free PCA race so I finally get to take the X off my tail Can't wait for the Glen!!
On a totally separate note I just realized that this race was my 4th successful, actually completed, and incident free PCA race so I finally get to take the X off my tail
Can't wait for the Glen!!I viewed the X as a target for easy pickings although you can use it to scare the hell out of people. I'm thinking about putting an X back on my car and just chopping anyone who tries to pass me. They'll say "damn rookie, he didn't even know I was there!"
04-24-2018, 01:23 PM
#22
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Great to see you Joe! Glad you had a clean weekend and look forward to seeing you at the next one.
I could be crazy, but it looks like he was actually trying to give you a point-by at 5:15.
I could be crazy, but it looks like he was actually trying to give you a point-by at 5:15.
04-24-2018, 07:00 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=JP66;14963949]Yeah, Spencer (the owner of SST and the individual in charge of the setup) knows I'm still a Rookie so the car has a slight understeer tendency dialed in as a safety precaution, and I agree I'd like to see steering inputs. I'll have to look at alternate mount points. SST likes to set up the camera as it is, but we'll see..
Hi Joe, I believe Simon and any procoach would recommend a car setup with a slight amount of understeer in all racing situations.The question is SST setup more than a slight amount of understeer.
Does you video camera have a wide angle lens?Simon drove my 944 with massive understeer and when the setup was changed to reduce the understeer, you can see the difference in steering wheel orientation after the suspension setup.
Also read Paradigm Shift Racing 3 books on racing. Adam Brouillard does an excellent explanation on how to drive the perfect corner with a momentum car.
Hope to see you at LRP this summer.
Tom
Hi Joe, I believe Simon and any procoach would recommend a car setup with a slight amount of understeer in all racing situations.The question is SST setup more than a slight amount of understeer.
Does you video camera have a wide angle lens?Simon drove my 944 with massive understeer and when the setup was changed to reduce the understeer, you can see the difference in steering wheel orientation after the suspension setup.
Also read Paradigm Shift Racing 3 books on racing. Adam Brouillard does an excellent explanation on how to drive the perfect corner with a momentum car.
Hope to see you at LRP this summer.
Tom
04-26-2018, 07:53 PM
#24
Drifting
Quick observation, going downhill before the front straight, you're on his bumper carrying slightly more speed and have to back off at exit to basically not ram into him and lose a lot of momentum. Try putting a little more space (back off slightly before the downhill) next time and as you go downhill carrying more speed, you won't have to back off exit sailing past by. Obviously timing is everything
The hard part is getting that plan together while you're keeping the car on the road, then learning exactly how far back you should be and when to start building speed for an attack that's a couple turns away. Then you have to execute that plan, which is hard too! But it's not supposed to be easy and that's why it's fun
