When to introduce rotating the car to a student?
03-29-2018, 11:01 AM
#16
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Thread Starter
I think you brought up a good point.
I know when a student and a new instructor meet for the first time, at least with my experience, the instructor takes my car out first, for many reasons which have been covered in various threads.
What I don't know is (and that is a lot), when a student is ready for the next big leap, ie. rotating the car, does the instructor demonstrate in the student's car?
This would make since for the type of great instruction dgrobs was talking about,
Can instructors chime in?
David
03-29-2018, 11:23 AM
#17
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Jeff
I think you brought up a good point.
I know when a student and a new instructor meet for the first time, at least with my experience, the instructor takes my car out first, for many reasons which have been covered in various threads.
What I don't know is (and that is a lot), when a student is ready for the next big leap, ie. rotating the car, does the instructor demonstrate in the student's car?
This would make since for the type of great instruction dgrobs was talking about,
Can instructors chime in?
David
I think you brought up a good point.
I know when a student and a new instructor meet for the first time, at least with my experience, the instructor takes my car out first, for many reasons which have been covered in various threads.
What I don't know is (and that is a lot), when a student is ready for the next big leap, ie. rotating the car, does the instructor demonstrate in the student's car?
This would make since for the type of great instruction dgrobs was talking about,
Can instructors chime in?
David
Just to be clear, I am the type of driver who WANTS a coach in the car with me. Always.
I know a lot of folks who don't want the instruction and would prefer to just be solo on the track. I get it.
While I have been signed off to solo many times, and have solo'd at a few of the DE's I have done, especially at WGI and PMP(which are tracks I do more than 10-15 days/season on), I would rather drop down a run group and get all the in car coaching I can get.
There are many reasons for this, but one of the biggest ones is to keep me from getting into bad habits BEFORE I start repeating these bad habits.
Again, I ALWAYS want the instruction. To me, it is priceless. When I head to the track, I leave my ego at home.
It is the in car coaching that has gotten me to the intermediate level I am at now (yes, I still suck compared to most), and I can only assume that continued in car coaching will take me to the next level as well, and the next level, and the next level....
To me, this is the type of activity that you can never be done learning. There is always more to learn, and the in car instruction is the way that I learn more and more about my car and myself and my driving.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.....
03-29-2018, 12:15 PM
#18
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I think it's highly student and car dependent. Hopefully I don't get burned at the stake, but I've worked with a green student on trail braking into the Toe at Watkins Glen because his car wouldn't turn there. I've ridden with White drivers that were just on the edge of being able to really make the car do what they want. It really comes down to the student, their ability to feel the car, and what they want to get out of their driving experience.
03-29-2018, 12:17 PM
#19
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I think it's highly student and car dependent. Hopefully I don't get burned at the stake, but I've worked with a green student on trail braking into the Toe at Watkins Glen because his car wouldn't turn there. I've ridden with White drivers that were just on the edge of being able to really make the car do what they want. It really comes down to the student, their ability to feel the car, and what they want to get out of their driving experience.
03-29-2018, 01:28 PM
#20
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Thread Starter
I remember we started discussing this in Blue and then continued with it in White (we run Green > Blue > White > Black > Red). Our home track, Summit Point, has a wet skid pad and that makes a lot of difference. We also check to see how much skid pad time each student has in order to make sure they know what to do when they get more rotation than they wanted
I also rotate in Turn 9 at WGI, it's SOP and now part of my line
In the video I linked to in opening post, the unknown subject driving, watching through his windshield, it looks like very smooth rotating in turn 9, is that what it looks like done properly?
You can see the car in front sashay coming out of the turn. It doesn't look as if the car in front executed the turn as well.
Do you have a video of turn 9?
03-29-2018, 02:30 PM
#21
The Penguin King
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Once the driver gets the 2D line down and has played with understeer and oversteer throughout the corner/track, you can start introducing the 3D line. If the driver hasn't explored grip/tire/suspension loads yet, then it is too early as muscle memory is a prerequisite for proper weight manipulation.
03-29-2018, 02:51 PM
#22
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03-29-2018, 03:39 PM
#25
My 2 cents.
I would not encourage a DE Instructor to "bring in rotation" to a student. Instead, I would go through a purposeful practice routine that builds skills and experience in a DE. This practice will predictably and naturally induce controlled rotation as demanded by the driver. This approach can work for every car (front engine, rear engine, etc...) and track condition (dry, wet, etc...) without simply learning to "rotate".
I would start this learning process as soon as a student is no longer "driving the track" and is instead driving the car - they aren't lost, are safe in traffic, know the flags, corner workers, etc...
Here's how I help students skill up to natural and controlled rotation (easier to do in the wet):
1.) First you have to get the student looking way far ahead - start on slow corners and ignore the typical tunnel vision as you enter the braking zone - while braking gauge corner entry speed to the apex by using your eyes - fill the brain with visual inputs - over practice this!
2.) Get used to throttle steering on long "sweeping" turns - feel the car understeer as weight is shifted rearward and turn in as weight is shifted forward - do this through throttle manipulation only (no additional steering input) - do this over and over again. Most students pick this up very quickly and naturally as they start carrying more speed and using up available grip mid corner while on maintenance throttle.
3.) Get used to "steering with the brake pedal" through trail braking. On relatively safe corners with good visibility and run off - start to introduce very simple trail braking (most do this naturally through the vision practice in step 1). Work up to holding smooth and decreasing brake pressure to the apex - ask the student to describe what he/she feels under braking as the car approaches the apex. Try to force the student to make it impossible for you to tell when he/she comes off the brake - make it smooth, over and over again.
If an instructor focuses on some simple skills - a student who wants to learn will begin to "rotate" the car at will around the track. But the instructor never teaches "rotation"...only vision and weight transfer. BTW - I do this routine at least one day myself - over and over again for each DE weekend.
I would not encourage a DE Instructor to "bring in rotation" to a student. Instead, I would go through a purposeful practice routine that builds skills and experience in a DE. This practice will predictably and naturally induce controlled rotation as demanded by the driver. This approach can work for every car (front engine, rear engine, etc...) and track condition (dry, wet, etc...) without simply learning to "rotate".
I would start this learning process as soon as a student is no longer "driving the track" and is instead driving the car - they aren't lost, are safe in traffic, know the flags, corner workers, etc...
Here's how I help students skill up to natural and controlled rotation (easier to do in the wet):
1.) First you have to get the student looking way far ahead - start on slow corners and ignore the typical tunnel vision as you enter the braking zone - while braking gauge corner entry speed to the apex by using your eyes - fill the brain with visual inputs - over practice this!
2.) Get used to throttle steering on long "sweeping" turns - feel the car understeer as weight is shifted rearward and turn in as weight is shifted forward - do this through throttle manipulation only (no additional steering input) - do this over and over again. Most students pick this up very quickly and naturally as they start carrying more speed and using up available grip mid corner while on maintenance throttle.
3.) Get used to "steering with the brake pedal" through trail braking. On relatively safe corners with good visibility and run off - start to introduce very simple trail braking (most do this naturally through the vision practice in step 1). Work up to holding smooth and decreasing brake pressure to the apex - ask the student to describe what he/she feels under braking as the car approaches the apex. Try to force the student to make it impossible for you to tell when he/she comes off the brake - make it smooth, over and over again.
If an instructor focuses on some simple skills - a student who wants to learn will begin to "rotate" the car at will around the track. But the instructor never teaches "rotation"...only vision and weight transfer. BTW - I do this routine at least one day myself - over and over again for each DE weekend.
03-29-2018, 03:50 PM
#26
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I think it's highly student and car dependent. Hopefully I don't get burned at the stake, but I've worked with a green student on trail braking into the Toe at Watkins Glen because his car wouldn't turn there. I've ridden with White drivers that were just on the edge of being able to really make the car do what they want. It really comes down to the student, their ability to feel the car, and what they want to get out of their driving experience.
03-29-2018, 03:55 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
My 2 cents.
I would not encourage a DE Instructor to "bring in rotation" to a student. Instead, I would go through a purposeful practice routine that builds skills and experience in a DE. This practice will predictably and naturally induce controlled rotation as demanded by the driver. This approach can work for every car (front engine, rear engine, etc...) and track condition (dry, wet, etc...) without simply learning to "rotate".
I would start this learning process as soon as a student is no longer "driving the track" and is instead driving the car - they aren't lost, are safe in traffic, know the flags, corner workers, etc...
Here's how I help students skill up to natural and controlled rotation (easier to do in the wet):
1.) First you have to get the student looking way far ahead - start on slow corners and ignore the typical tunnel vision as you enter the braking zone - while braking gauge corner entry speed to the apex by using your eyes - fill the brain with visual inputs - over practice this!
2.) Get used to throttle steering on long "sweeping" turns - feel the car understeer as weight is shifted rearward and turn in as weight is shifted forward - do this through throttle manipulation only (no additional steering input) - do this over and over again. Most students pick this up very quickly and naturally as they start carrying more speed and using up available grip mid corner while on maintenance throttle.
3.) Get used to "steering with the brake pedal" through trail braking. On relatively safe corners with good visibility and run off - start to introduce very simple trail braking (most do this naturally through the vision practice in step 1). Work up to holding smooth and decreasing brake pressure to the apex - ask the student to describe what he/she feels under braking as the car approaches the apex. Try to force the student to make it impossible for you to tell when he/she comes off the brake - make it smooth, over and over again.
If an instructor focuses on some simple skills - a student who wants to learn will begin to "rotate" the car at will around the track. But the instructor never teaches "rotation"...only vision and weight transfer. BTW - I do this routine at least one day myself - over and over again for each DE weekend.
I would not encourage a DE Instructor to "bring in rotation" to a student. Instead, I would go through a purposeful practice routine that builds skills and experience in a DE. This practice will predictably and naturally induce controlled rotation as demanded by the driver. This approach can work for every car (front engine, rear engine, etc...) and track condition (dry, wet, etc...) without simply learning to "rotate".
I would start this learning process as soon as a student is no longer "driving the track" and is instead driving the car - they aren't lost, are safe in traffic, know the flags, corner workers, etc...
Here's how I help students skill up to natural and controlled rotation (easier to do in the wet):
1.) First you have to get the student looking way far ahead - start on slow corners and ignore the typical tunnel vision as you enter the braking zone - while braking gauge corner entry speed to the apex by using your eyes - fill the brain with visual inputs - over practice this!
2.) Get used to throttle steering on long "sweeping" turns - feel the car understeer as weight is shifted rearward and turn in as weight is shifted forward - do this through throttle manipulation only (no additional steering input) - do this over and over again. Most students pick this up very quickly and naturally as they start carrying more speed and using up available grip mid corner while on maintenance throttle.
3.) Get used to "steering with the brake pedal" through trail braking. On relatively safe corners with good visibility and run off - start to introduce very simple trail braking (most do this naturally through the vision practice in step 1). Work up to holding smooth and decreasing brake pressure to the apex - ask the student to describe what he/she feels under braking as the car approaches the apex. Try to force the student to make it impossible for you to tell when he/she comes off the brake - make it smooth, over and over again.
If an instructor focuses on some simple skills - a student who wants to learn will begin to "rotate" the car at will around the track. But the instructor never teaches "rotation"...only vision and weight transfer. BTW - I do this routine at least one day myself - over and over again for each DE weekend.
03-29-2018, 04:19 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
My 2 cents.
I would not encourage a DE Instructor to "bring in rotation" to a student. Instead, I would go through a purposeful practice routine that builds skills and experience in a DE. This practice will predictably and naturally induce controlled rotation as demanded by the driver. This approach can work for every car (front engine, rear engine, etc...) and track condition (dry, wet, etc...) without simply learning to "rotate".
I would start this learning process as soon as a student is no longer "driving the track" and is instead driving the car - they aren't lost, are safe in traffic, know the flags, corner workers, etc...
Here's how I help students skill up to natural and controlled rotation (easier to do in the wet):
1.) First you have to get the student looking way far ahead - start on slow corners and ignore the typical tunnel vision as you enter the braking zone - while braking gauge corner entry speed to the apex by using your eyes - fill the brain with visual inputs - over practice this!
2.) Get used to throttle steering on long "sweeping" turns - feel the car understeer as weight is shifted rearward and turn in as weight is shifted forward - do this through throttle manipulation only (no additional steering input) - do this over and over again. Most students pick this up very quickly and naturally as they start carrying more speed and using up available grip mid corner while on maintenance throttle.
3.) Get used to "steering with the brake pedal" through trail braking. On relatively safe corners with good visibility and run off - start to introduce very simple trail braking (most do this naturally through the vision practice in step 1). Work up to holding smooth and decreasing brake pressure to the apex - ask the student to describe what he/she feels under braking as the car approaches the apex. Try to force the student to make it impossible for you to tell when he/she comes off the brake - make it smooth, over and over again.
If an instructor focuses on some simple skills - a student who wants to learn will begin to "rotate" the car at will around the track. But the instructor never teaches "rotation"...only vision and weight transfer. BTW - I do this routine at least one day myself - over and over again for each DE weekend.
I would not encourage a DE Instructor to "bring in rotation" to a student. Instead, I would go through a purposeful practice routine that builds skills and experience in a DE. This practice will predictably and naturally induce controlled rotation as demanded by the driver. This approach can work for every car (front engine, rear engine, etc...) and track condition (dry, wet, etc...) without simply learning to "rotate".
I would start this learning process as soon as a student is no longer "driving the track" and is instead driving the car - they aren't lost, are safe in traffic, know the flags, corner workers, etc...
Here's how I help students skill up to natural and controlled rotation (easier to do in the wet):
1.) First you have to get the student looking way far ahead - start on slow corners and ignore the typical tunnel vision as you enter the braking zone - while braking gauge corner entry speed to the apex by using your eyes - fill the brain with visual inputs - over practice this!
2.) Get used to throttle steering on long "sweeping" turns - feel the car understeer as weight is shifted rearward and turn in as weight is shifted forward - do this through throttle manipulation only (no additional steering input) - do this over and over again. Most students pick this up very quickly and naturally as they start carrying more speed and using up available grip mid corner while on maintenance throttle.
3.) Get used to "steering with the brake pedal" through trail braking. On relatively safe corners with good visibility and run off - start to introduce very simple trail braking (most do this naturally through the vision practice in step 1). Work up to holding smooth and decreasing brake pressure to the apex - ask the student to describe what he/she feels under braking as the car approaches the apex. Try to force the student to make it impossible for you to tell when he/she comes off the brake - make it smooth, over and over again.
If an instructor focuses on some simple skills - a student who wants to learn will begin to "rotate" the car at will around the track. But the instructor never teaches "rotation"...only vision and weight transfer. BTW - I do this routine at least one day myself - over and over again for each DE weekend.
Thanks, that is awesome detail.
Accordingly, the steps you outline, for where I am at.
1) Looking ahead as far as possible , doing so to create tunnel vision to apex while controlling braking. ---- I am almost there, I am on longer sweeping turns, more so than tighter 60-90 degree turns, I don't know, it doesn't even make sense to me, once you described it.
2) Feeling the car understeer as the weight is being transferred . ------- It wasn't until my last two track days did I feel this, but could actually predict it after more and more laps. It was exciting and concerning at the same time, if you know what I mean.
It was turn 5, (outter loop) after the bus stop at WGI. My speed coming through the bus stop was increasing at almost every lap, it actually was making my entry into turn 5 easier to transition. Eventually, the weight transfer was getting more intense, with my butt sliding in the seat from right to left. ( Earlier this year I had a thread asking about CG lock, for this reason).
Also, my tires at this event were almost new. I would have to believe that the grip of a certain brand of tire, and at certain wear points, all contribute to predictability. Or no, not right?
I am not sure how soon I will be ready to consistently predict and execute a contolled rotation, but I sure am looking forward to learning.
Thanks
David