What DE's allow keeping the windows closed safely?
02-27-2018, 06:16 PM
#61
So am I only safe in my street car with the windows up? Are manufacturers designing airbag systems that only work properly with the windows up? I certainly hope the answer to both of these are no.
Charley
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02-27-2018, 07:43 PM
#62
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end even the blinker option: I've seen many closed cockpit cars IN THE UPPER RUN GROUPS put their right turn signal on and move to the right side of the track...even though at the drivers meeting it was explained that the signal side was the side the passing car was supposed to go.
Hand out the window point by - never any questions....
end even the blinker option: I've seen many closed cockpit cars IN THE UPPER RUN GROUPS put their right turn signal on and move to the right side of the track...even though at the drivers meeting it was explained that the signal side was the side the passing car was supposed to go.
Hand out the window point by - never any questions....
Many years ago, I did safety research at Ford. I’m certainly not current but still have a good understanding of crash dynamics. Putting aside passing signals, my answer to the driver injury portion of the windows up or down debate is “it depends”.
Up is better with side impact air bags, 3-point belts, and non-containment seats. Once you have a better driver containment system, then the side window probably does not contribute anything other than temporary debris avoidance. BTW, if you are properly restrained by a 5+ point restraint system, your driver air bag system likely does nothing but block your vision for a few moments after an initiating impact.
From the track safety worker perspective, an intact closed window could be a serious issue if fire or severe driver trauma is involved. So, until an unbiased study surfaces, I maintain that there is NO clear answer to the question.
Bob L
02-27-2018, 07:44 PM
#63
Exactly...
end even the blinker option: I've seen many closed cockpit cars IN THE UPPER RUN GROUPS put their right turn signal on and move to the right side of the track...even though at the drivers meeting it was explained that the signal side was the side the passing car was supposed to go.
....
end even the blinker option: I've seen many closed cockpit cars IN THE UPPER RUN GROUPS put their right turn signal on and move to the right side of the track...even though at the drivers meeting it was explained that the signal side was the side the passing car was supposed to go.
....
Audi Club North America allows windows up and turn signals as part of our National Guidelines. We do it for safety and ease of giving passes. We basically use european DE rules. Our national website has the DE Guidelines available for review. https://audiclubna.org/ Sorry but only ACNA Members can access the site.
Last edited by ExMB; 02-27-2018 at 10:05 PM.
02-27-2018, 09:13 PM
#64
Race Director
Mike, have 100% clarity that it is a track policy, not a Chin policy. At Barber, the Porsche Sport School *does not use* corner workers/race control. As such, they have their own independent guidelines. All the large-scale tracks that have fully developed fire/rescue/safety teams require windows down. It's a fact. When it's raining and they give exceptions, they're just being nice. But, the policy doesn't change. My personal preference would be windows up. But, the track safety boss always has the final say. The windows open standard is always related to rescuing a disabled driver post-crash. Chin always adopts the track standard.
Hopefully Chin Trackdays could be the leader they are and start some discussions with track bosses and manufacture engineers on this subject. I’d be happy to help in anyway I can too.
Thanks!
02-27-2018, 09:47 PM
#65
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I'm also trying to comprehend DE's with the A/C on. Times have sure changed. When I started doing track events, none of the cars could run for 20-30 minutes around a track with the A/C on without overheating.
02-27-2018, 10:30 PM
#66
A world with no point-bys is so much better. You Point-by DE guys gotta try it. Find a HPDE group that has a no point-by needed group. There are many...
02-27-2018, 10:39 PM
#67
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I could not care whether it's safer with windows up or down. I just know it's infinitely more enjoyable with windows up.
Am I willing to sacrifice a bit of (purported?) safety for the sake enjoyment. Yes.
Cuz, you know what? DE or HPDE events by their very nature not safe. In fact, life is not safe.
Am I willing to sacrifice a bit of (purported?) safety for the sake enjoyment. Yes.
Cuz, you know what? DE or HPDE events by their very nature not safe. In fact, life is not safe.
02-27-2018, 10:54 PM
#68
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Audi Club North America allows windows up and turn signals as part of our National Guidelines. We do it for safety and ease of giving passes. We basically use european DE rules. Our national website has the DE Guidelines available for review. https://audiclubna.org/ Sorry but only ACNA Members can access the site.
And....which side do you pass on with blinkers? Some say go where the blinker side is, some say the lead car will move to the side the blinker is on...then...what if the lead car forgets which way to go? Accident waiting to happen...
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02-27-2018, 11:11 PM
#70
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02-27-2018, 11:29 PM
#71
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pboc super solo is one of them. I use to run them...great group...but pboc is a race group and the de sessions would get shortened or canceled a lot to get the racing back on time. I haven’t been on track with them in a few years though.
02-28-2018, 02:58 AM
#72
Rennlist Member
The idea that windows keep your extremities inside the car in an accident serious enough to break the glass and deploy airbags is absurd...
If you're paranoid about that, buy harnesses for the car and use arm restraints, at least for the window opening side of the car. Sheesh.
If you're paranoid about that, buy harnesses for the car and use arm restraints, at least for the window opening side of the car. Sheesh.
You obviously have no clue on how air bags work and are designed then. Yes windows will keep arms inside the car in a crash. Go out and punch your car window...try it you won't break it. Windows in modern cars are designed to contain and steering air bags into the proper position as well. Windows down at a DE should be a thing of the past especially with modern day cars with safety glass and multiple air bags.
again, the reason for the windows down is communication, hand signals, less mess upon clean up, access to get out the window if the door is jammed in an accident.
This window up or down rule is also a DE car versus race car issue.
My race car does not have airbags nor windows to roll up. I have a harness, halo seat, and window net. Raining or snowing (I have been on the track in the snow!) I am out there sans windows.
In my DE car I don;t have airbags but still have windows. I'll keep my passenger side window up in bad weather but in an accident I prefer all windows to be down so someone could get to me as quickly as possible.
My race car does not have airbags nor windows to roll up. I have a harness, halo seat, and window net. Raining or snowing (I have been on the track in the snow!) I am out there sans windows.
In my DE car I don;t have airbags but still have windows. I'll keep my passenger side window up in bad weather but in an accident I prefer all windows to be down so someone could get to me as quickly as possible.
Oh, so it's your fault we have this archaic and ridiculous rule.
#1 Windows are made easy to break. Seat belt or harness buckle is 100% effective to break a window from the inside, and on the outside you can use a special tool or fire extinguisher, flag shaft, etc. Even most car key will work. Windows also tend to shatter in any deformation of the roof anyway, so if the door does not open the window is most likely gone already. Outside of track, on public roads, where everything has been tested and quantified rather than based on superstitions, it's a determined fact that closed windows are safer. In fact, many new cars will close windows when a collision is about to happen.
#2 Only relevant in those extremely rare situations where the gar gets disabled next to a corner worker AND in such a way that window lowering mechanism would break as well AND there would be no other noise around (racetracks are known for peace and quiet)
#3 How is someone's hand more visible than a blinker? Unlike a blinker, a hand often obscured by the car and it does not light up.
#4 Side windows are made to shatter into pieces that are almost indistinguishable from gravel in a gravel trap. Few more pebbles would not make much difference. Also, upper windows are up and would almost definitely shutter in a crash with enough deformation to make doors unopenable.
Everywhere else in the world, and even in the USA outside of the track driving, it's determined that windows up is the safer way in a street-legal car - no debris plying in, no limbs flailing out, airbags work better etc. But of course, a bunch of seasoned farts writing track rules in the US is the only group in the universe that has any clue.
#1 Windows are made easy to break. Seat belt or harness buckle is 100% effective to break a window from the inside, and on the outside you can use a special tool or fire extinguisher, flag shaft, etc. Even most car key will work. Windows also tend to shatter in any deformation of the roof anyway, so if the door does not open the window is most likely gone already. Outside of track, on public roads, where everything has been tested and quantified rather than based on superstitions, it's a determined fact that closed windows are safer. In fact, many new cars will close windows when a collision is about to happen.
#2 Only relevant in those extremely rare situations where the gar gets disabled next to a corner worker AND in such a way that window lowering mechanism would break as well AND there would be no other noise around (racetracks are known for peace and quiet)
#3 How is someone's hand more visible than a blinker? Unlike a blinker, a hand often obscured by the car and it does not light up.
#4 Side windows are made to shatter into pieces that are almost indistinguishable from gravel in a gravel trap. Few more pebbles would not make much difference. Also, upper windows are up and would almost definitely shutter in a crash with enough deformation to make doors unopenable.
Everywhere else in the world, and even in the USA outside of the track driving, it's determined that windows up is the safer way in a street-legal car - no debris plying in, no limbs flailing out, airbags work better etc. But of course, a bunch of seasoned farts writing track rules in the US is the only group in the universe that has any clue.
blinkers fail, some could get mixed up on their meaning. hand signals out the window are obvoius to see and are a standard of track work...... also , helpful in showing that you are going to the pits........also for instructors to re-enphasize that you want someone to follow you closer. (pat'ing the roof)
side windows break up in to glass pebbles.. its a big mess and needs to be cleaned up. corner workers dont like glass clean up.
if im upside down and the window didnt break........im not comfortable trying to break it when it didnt need to be broken if it was down.. no matter how easy it is . if you are burning, you dont want another step to go through to get out.
I have SEEN two street cars catch on fire at a DE. Both were late model GM products (Corvette & Camero), which have electric door releases. In both cases the electrical systems were fried by the fire. Both cars had an emergency door release, but in both cases the drivers (and one instructor) chose to bail out the window as that was the fastest way out. I'd hate to be looking for a tool to break a window, or trying to hit the window with a seat belt buckle.
As Peter stated, in a rollover that is violent enough to cause your arms to come out of the window, the window would most likely shatter. I've looked for information on the efficacy of side air bags with windows open vs closed and have not found any info so far.
As Peter stated, in a rollover that is violent enough to cause your arms to come out of the window, the window would most likely shatter. I've looked for information on the efficacy of side air bags with windows open vs closed and have not found any info so far.
Exactly...
That's the problem, Except for a VERY FEW completely closed cockpit cars that NORMALLY run in upper run groups where supposedly the drivers are much more situationally aware, every other car can put it's window down and the drive can give hand-out-the-window point by signals. NOT every car has blinkers (most race cars don't). For example...my race car. No blinkers, no windows. So what do we do?
For upper run groups, different signals (blinkers, hand out the window point bys, etc) are probably OK, but for lower run groups who are just learning how to drive on the track, how do you explain "well, this car might do a turn signal, this car might be hand-out-the-window point by, this car might be hand-INSIDE-the window point by, etc"
And even when using the blinker option: I've seen many closed cockpit cars IN THE UPPER RUN GROUPS put their right turn signal on and move to the right side of the track...even though at the drivers meeting it was explained that the signal side was the side the passing car was supposed to go.
Hand out the window point by - never any questions....
That's the problem, Except for a VERY FEW completely closed cockpit cars that NORMALLY run in upper run groups where supposedly the drivers are much more situationally aware, every other car can put it's window down and the drive can give hand-out-the-window point by signals. NOT every car has blinkers (most race cars don't). For example...my race car. No blinkers, no windows. So what do we do?
For upper run groups, different signals (blinkers, hand out the window point bys, etc) are probably OK, but for lower run groups who are just learning how to drive on the track, how do you explain "well, this car might do a turn signal, this car might be hand-out-the-window point by, this car might be hand-INSIDE-the window point by, etc"
And even when using the blinker option: I've seen many closed cockpit cars IN THE UPPER RUN GROUPS put their right turn signal on and move to the right side of the track...even though at the drivers meeting it was explained that the signal side was the side the passing car was supposed to go.
Hand out the window point by - never any questions....
That in itself is a reason to get one and hang out with you more often!
Hope to see you at Pikes Peak!
1. In the very rare occasion that a DE car catches on fire due to a crash (I haven't seen one in the last 500 track days), I will take my chances that the emergency rescue vehicle gets to me on time. The response times have been phenomenal. I actually think there are times that the window structure helps from deforming and keeps the doors operational longer. German car manufacturers see to think so. Anyway, I am much moire likely to die from crap flying through the car then a car fire. That I am sure of.
2. If they are right next to the car you cant hear anything, if they are you can with the windows closed.
3. Nothing is more clear then turn signals. Everyone uses it every day, everyone sees it every day. Much, more clear then flailing arm out of the window that almost get ripped out of your shoulder socket. Example guy sticks his arm all the way out the window to the left, only to take .5 seconds to bend his arm ver the roof to the right. In that half a second your committing to the wrong side of the car. Or something flaps around half out the window and one mistakes it for a glove/point by.. It seems the race car drivers have the hardest time giving clear point by's..
4.This is a moot pint because if there is glass to clean up, the track is going to be cold for a bit while they clean up up the rest of the car parts, it will just get sweeped up with the kitty litter..
I think your clairvoyance system is broken..
Hope to see you at Pikes Peak!
1. In the very rare occasion that a DE car catches on fire due to a crash (I haven't seen one in the last 500 track days), I will take my chances that the emergency rescue vehicle gets to me on time. The response times have been phenomenal. I actually think there are times that the window structure helps from deforming and keeps the doors operational longer. German car manufacturers see to think so. Anyway, I am much moire likely to die from crap flying through the car then a car fire. That I am sure of.
2. If they are right next to the car you cant hear anything, if they are you can with the windows closed.
3. Nothing is more clear then turn signals. Everyone uses it every day, everyone sees it every day. Much, more clear then flailing arm out of the window that almost get ripped out of your shoulder socket. Example guy sticks his arm all the way out the window to the left, only to take .5 seconds to bend his arm ver the roof to the right. In that half a second your committing to the wrong side of the car. Or something flaps around half out the window and one mistakes it for a glove/point by.. It seems the race car drivers have the hardest time giving clear point by's..
4.This is a moot pint because if there is glass to clean up, the track is going to be cold for a bit while they clean up up the rest of the car parts, it will just get sweeped up with the kitty litter..
I think your clairvoyance system is broken..
02-28-2018, 08:41 AM
#73
02-28-2018, 08:50 AM
#74
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Originally Posted by brake dust
GT3R and RSR does
02-28-2018, 09:55 AM
#75
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Another example: SCCA time trial. Rule is no pass without point by or you’ll be black flagged. Then told windows up or window nets. So I get behind another car and get no point by from what I can see. I wait.... then I pass “he must have given me a point bye by now”...I get black flagged and reprimanded. As do many others. Talked to the driver and he said he kept giving me a point by. I just couldn’t see it through his roll cage and sun glare on his back window. As I, he had no turn signals. I told control and was told “if the flaggers don’t see it, you’ll be black flagged”. Happened twice more that day. Never got good laps...
Sunday was windows down, point bye out the window....no problems.
Sunday was windows down, point bye out the window....no problems.