What DE's allow keeping the windows closed safely?
02-26-2018, 07:06 PM
#16
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Thread Starter
Our region requires the driver's side window down and the other side has to either be all the way up or all the way down. They're not down for any safety reason or they'd require the instructor one down too. They don't. They're down only so you can give a point-by.
My understanding is that it's because you can't accidentally give a point-by this way. Each one is obvious and deliberate. With turn signals you could hit them accidentally or you could have a second or third car go by that you didn't intend to signal.
My understanding is that it's because you can't accidentally give a point-by this way. Each one is obvious and deliberate. With turn signals you could hit them accidentally or you could have a second or third car go by that you didn't intend to signal.
I did the Ron Felllows Corvette school at Spring Mountain, and they required you to drive with the windows up. They even told us to use AC and cooled seats if we wanted. They did there instruction though the stereo system so no instructor in the car.
I don't know how there normal track days worked, but it was kind of nice with the windows up.
Also drag racing requires you to put your windows up.
I don't know how there normal track days worked, but it was kind of nice with the windows up.
Also drag racing requires you to put your windows up.
Echo what Grant said. Also was lucky at a BMWCCA club race school that they allowed windows up only because it was raining. One more reason windows down makes no sense.
Would be curious if somebody from the insurance side would chime in. Change will likely have to come from them first.
Would be curious if somebody from the insurance side would chime in. Change will likely have to come from them first.
In the summer heat, windows up with AC is far safer. then getting heat stroke. I really wish we could run windows up.
There's a guy in the local club that shows up with a DP, of course he gets to run with using blinkers. But everyone else is stuck with windows down. I could understand the issue in blue or green. But in Red/Black it doesn't make sense.
There's a guy in the local club that shows up with a DP, of course he gets to run with using blinkers. But everyone else is stuck with windows down. I could understand the issue in blue or green. But in Red/Black it doesn't make sense.
I need an invite one of these days :-)
What a facility and now I know you can even run windows closed, awesome!
Its still my biggest concern haha.
02-26-2018, 07:09 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thermal, Amp..Maybe the private Club tracks are onto something, I would pay jus to be able to drive windows up.
Smart and safe! I ran with them at the Glen in pouring rain back in 2012 and they also ran windows closed then. Awesome group!
I did an event last year at the Glen with Audi Club North East region and we kept the windows up—used directional as to “point” which side you wanted people behind to pass—-was pretty unfamiliar at first as every other club DE I do uses point by hand signals and windows down
02-26-2018, 09:00 PM
#20
Race Director
Peter I’m absolute with you....windows down is dangerous....I don’t want my arms failing out the window in a crash and getting pelted by pebbles and tire clag through the open window is dangerous.
i wish PCA and Chin ( the 2 groups I drive with) would change there ways. I’ve brought this up but they pass the blame to the track...but yet when it rains they now let us drive with windows up. More chance of a wreck in the rain!......anyway it’s a bunch of hard headed stupid chit running with window down. Porsche school at Barber drive with windows up so that the air bags work properly in a crash.
i wish PCA and Chin ( the 2 groups I drive with) would change there ways. I’ve brought this up but they pass the blame to the track...but yet when it rains they now let us drive with windows up. More chance of a wreck in the rain!......anyway it’s a bunch of hard headed stupid chit running with window down. Porsche school at Barber drive with windows up so that the air bags work properly in a crash.
I hate driving with the windows open because it is dangerous and uncomfortable.
Several times I have been struck by debris.
Yes, ROW readers, here in the good old USA almost all tracks and event organizers use the archaic rule of mandatory windows DOWN, as opposed to UP everywhere else in the world!!
Please post here if you know a Track or Driving event organization that allows to keep the windows closed.
I have enjoyed a few tracks and organizations, years ago at Road America for example where common sense prevailed and I would like to find out if you guys know of more.Unfortunately most tracks and organizers have not yet caught on that this is very dangerous and I prefer to choose tracks and organizers that allow the windows to be safely closed and use turn signals to give point by’s.
The old excuse typically used is that it’s easier to get to the driver with the windows down, I guess they can’t be bothered with a special little < $10.00 tool or a piece of spark plug to break the windows if the doors won’t open.
Little < $10.00 tool demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=108CoOyteGM
Or some free spark plug pieces:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArUnuEUd4VU
Even during events where closed cockpit race cars are allowed to use turn signals as point by’s, street legal DE cars must have the windows lowered.
I suppose race car customer lives’ and limbs’ are more valuable then street car DE customers.
Hard to understand why the track or DE organizations assume such liability by overriding the car manufacturers and drivers alike.
The reason windows down is so dangerous:
- Manufacturers are so sure that windows up are safer in a crash that when there is an impending crash or the car is crashing, some cars close the windows automatically, so those will be closed anyway and a tool is needed.
- DE cars have no safety nets. Race cars are not allowed on track without them because flailing arms out of the car is too dangerous; Yet in DE it’s mandatory to stick your entire arm out of the car. Crazy.
- Point by’s at 150 MPH, LOL! We are supposed to extend our entire arm out the window and over the roof. Good luck with that at high speed parts of the track.
- Debris enters the cockpit hitting the driver causing injury and maybe even an incident, typically rubber coming off cars, but also car parts or other debris flying up left after other incidents.
- When crashing, I prefer not to die from sharp pieces flying into the car cutting my neck.
- Side window glass is extremely strong for a reason, it helps the structure of the car, we have all seen the guys trying to break them by throwing bricks and failing.
- Cars are not build to go 150MPH with the windows down - Your head wobbles in the car due to turbulence, hard to focus on your marks. In the Porsche 991 if you don’t add little foils on the A pillar the windows blow out.
- Cars are not build to go 150MPH with the windows down – rear windows have been known to blow out, potentially causing incidents.
- With the windows up the side airbag curtains are more effective.
Several times I have been struck by debris.
Yes, ROW readers, here in the good old USA almost all tracks and event organizers use the archaic rule of mandatory windows DOWN, as opposed to UP everywhere else in the world!!
Please post here if you know a Track or Driving event organization that allows to keep the windows closed.
I have enjoyed a few tracks and organizations, years ago at Road America for example where common sense prevailed and I would like to find out if you guys know of more.Unfortunately most tracks and organizers have not yet caught on that this is very dangerous and I prefer to choose tracks and organizers that allow the windows to be safely closed and use turn signals to give point by’s.
The old excuse typically used is that it’s easier to get to the driver with the windows down, I guess they can’t be bothered with a special little < $10.00 tool or a piece of spark plug to break the windows if the doors won’t open.
Little < $10.00 tool demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=108CoOyteGM
Or some free spark plug pieces:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArUnuEUd4VU
Even during events where closed cockpit race cars are allowed to use turn signals as point by’s, street legal DE cars must have the windows lowered.
I suppose race car customer lives’ and limbs’ are more valuable then street car DE customers.
Hard to understand why the track or DE organizations assume such liability by overriding the car manufacturers and drivers alike.
The reason windows down is so dangerous:
- Manufacturers are so sure that windows up are safer in a crash that when there is an impending crash or the car is crashing, some cars close the windows automatically, so those will be closed anyway and a tool is needed.
- DE cars have no safety nets. Race cars are not allowed on track without them because flailing arms out of the car is too dangerous; Yet in DE it’s mandatory to stick your entire arm out of the car. Crazy.
- Point by’s at 150 MPH, LOL! We are supposed to extend our entire arm out the window and over the roof. Good luck with that at high speed parts of the track.
- Debris enters the cockpit hitting the driver causing injury and maybe even an incident, typically rubber coming off cars, but also car parts or other debris flying up left after other incidents.
- When crashing, I prefer not to die from sharp pieces flying into the car cutting my neck.
- Side window glass is extremely strong for a reason, it helps the structure of the car, we have all seen the guys trying to break them by throwing bricks and failing.
- Cars are not build to go 150MPH with the windows down - Your head wobbles in the car due to turbulence, hard to focus on your marks. In the Porsche 991 if you don’t add little foils on the A pillar the windows blow out.
- Cars are not build to go 150MPH with the windows down – rear windows have been known to blow out, potentially causing incidents.
- With the windows up the side airbag curtains are more effective.
Last edited by mdrums; 02-27-2018 at 12:20 PM.
02-26-2018, 09:45 PM
#21
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I'm also appalled by the windows down rule. Got to drive with windows up in Europe and realized how much better it is. Is there something we can actually do to change this regulation? Like a petition or some consultations - like what was done for engine replacement in early 991 GT3s?
02-26-2018, 09:51 PM
#22
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why don't you send the National PCA DE Chair an email with your thoughts. There's a committee that discusses these exact things. Remember when we couldn't pass in corner??
02-26-2018, 11:17 PM
#23
02-26-2018, 11:20 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Some groups have turn signals as an option to pass.
I thought it had something to do with the insurance carried by track day organizers? Any truth to that?
I thought it had something to do with the insurance carried by track day organizers? Any truth to that?
Last edited by GeoJoe; 02-26-2018 at 11:57 PM.
02-26-2018, 11:51 PM
#25
I have never had the pleasure of windows up on track. But you guys who want windows up may want to check to see how your A/C works. Many modern sportscars shut the A/C compressor off at wide open throttle to max power. So on a hot summer day you might still be cooking...
02-27-2018, 12:06 AM
#26
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I have never had the pleasure of windows up on track. But you guys who want windows up may want to check to see how your A/C works. Many modern sportscars shut the A/C compressor off at wide open throttle to max power. So on a hot summer day you might still be cooking...
02-27-2018, 12:24 AM
#27
Rennlist Member
SAME here in the NW. Especially if it is raining. I won't even run my car if it is be cause of that. Wish we could adapt and start using the blinker.
02-27-2018, 12:54 AM
#28
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im with Peter.
I actually added the Manthey Racing carbon doors with full plexi windows to my GT4CS this year so I can run windows up and A/C on!
Windows down is for chumps!
I actually added the Manthey Racing carbon doors with full plexi windows to my GT4CS this year so I can run windows up and A/C on!
Windows down is for chumps!
02-27-2018, 02:23 AM
#30
RL Community Team
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I have never had the pleasure of windows up on track. But you guys who want windows up may want to check to see how your A/C works. Many modern sportscars shut the A/C compressor off at wide open throttle to max power. So on a hot summer day you might still be cooking...
Speaking from personal experience, tracking it in 110F (and higher) during the peak of summer, with A/C on full blast. And windows up.