AO

I'm not sure if data would back up that claim, but it seem on point. My experience from last weekend's VIR event w Zone2 would indicate this. Student in a 427 "Built" C6 Corvette in Blue group. Said he had 20+ events, 30+ days. Cold morning (<50* F) on slicks, came around 4a, and car spun 180 into the tire wall. I took the brunt of the impact at I would guess ~30MPH. It hurt, but nothing broken as far as I could tell. We were both "fine." Car did "okay" too. More on that down below.

However, in the days since, it has really made me re-think if I want to instruct from the right-seat. After replaying the incident in my head over and over again, I wonder if share slightly in the blame for the incident. I warned my student that the tires would be cold and slippery a couple times. But maybe I didn't stress it enough. Maybe I did a dis-service by even getting into the car. Should I have said, "Nope. Let's sit this one out until it warms up." Who knows. The fact is, I didn't. I might next time however. WIll he be pissed? Maybe. Will we avoid an incident? Possibly.

Out lap, as we entered 4a, I almost said to him that he was going a bit fast for the conditions, but I didn't. It ALWAYS feels faster from the right-seat, so I relied on his judgement. That was the cardinal mistake I made, and will never do again. If I feel something is wrong, I will speak up next time. Will it help? Dunno. That's what is making me re-think things. His car was easily hitting 150+ on the back straight, and the only thing holding it back was his sense of self-preservation. I'm sure that car was capable of 165+, maybe higher. But the speed wasn't making me uncomfortable, it was his braking and his inability to Heel-Toe that caused the car to lurch. I told him one of these times, it's going to cause the car to spin and go off the track. Little did I know, it was cold tires and conditions that were going to do that.

Getting back somewhat on-topic for this thread, however, I must say, I was very surprised there was no medical check after the incident. We were asked, "Are you okay?" to which we both said yes, but I was still kind of surprised paramedics didn't give us a quick look, or even a call for an attending MD to give us a check out. After the incident, I did tell the CDI that would not get back in that car without it getting a complete tech inspection to ensure integrity of the car. So I guess my head was still working. Then I self-medicated that evening (forgot to mention I spun a bearing the previous day, so my WE was done).

It was an experience for sure. One I hope not to repeat, but will learn from. I am super glad we were not seriously hurt and the car was still drivable, but for some minor body damage.

Gofishracing

Going back to an earlier part of this thread. NNJR has every intention this season to do intermediate driver blitz. All Instructors up and into intermediate driver's cars right seat. I expect Black Flag drills as well. CVR credentials for moving up a run group very strict. For a reason!

dgrobs

Not sure if you knew/know this, but a BMW had gone off during an afternoon session (I think on Saturday maybe), and an ambulance followed the tow truck out onto the track.
I did not see the ambulance follow the truck out after your students incident at 4a/b. I could have missed it, but maybe your incident prompted the ambulance to follow the truck out for the BMW.
I'm a bit hazy on which incident happened first, but yes, kind of strange no medical check out for you and your student, but THERE WAS a checkout for the BMW incident.
Either way, glad no one was hurt in either incident. That's good. Really good.
Sorry to keep this thread off topic.....

rlm328

The newer cars are faster, period. The new drivers do not know what they are doing, period. It is about situational awareness, car control and making good decisions. When a driver does not know what they are doing they have to think about what they are doing which slows their car control inputs, they are not aware of what they need to look for in situational awareness, and they do not know how the car will react in a given situation. While most incidents probably do occur at low speeds these have a much lower probability of killing or maiming you.

The newer cars today are probably far more capable doing things than their drivers will ever be, and this should scare you.

Saltybrad

I was in this run group as well. It was cold and slick. The big mistake was getting in the corvette with those conditions that still had slicks on. I talked with him as he was putting his street tires back on to drive home.....

TXE36

My advice is don't discount a gut feeling like that which agrees with your post assessment. My reliance on my student's judgement comes from observing that judgement over time Your third to last sentence indicates to me the best judgement was not being demonstrated. Ironically, I don't feel speed (fast/slow) from the right seat per se, I tend to feel in control/out of control, ahead of the car/behind the car, rough/smooth. Yes, it may feel faster right seat, but I never let them go fast enough to make me uncomfortable in the right seat...

-Mike

ExMB

Glad to hear you're OK

+1

onevoice

Glyndellis

Whilst this would not have changed the situation at Roebling that started this thread, maybe one solution is to mandate street tires (200 TW and higher?), especially in the non-advanced groups? An event in which I drove last year had 3 incidents - 2 advanced group drivers on cold tires and a B group crash in a car with slicks. I know one of the advanced guys well, and if his skills and experience didn't allow him to avoid a wreck on cold slicks, I'm avoiding them. Slicks would make me faster, but the street tires are still fun and I can learn to drive my car with larger margins for error. The prizes at DEs are the same regardless of tires. I'm there to have fun, learn and improve. I could just buy faster lap times but I'm not convinced this would be more fun.

Mark Dreyer

Manifold

Regarding the question of how safe DE is, the largest region of PCA has had a large DE program for decades, has never had a fatality, and has had no injuries serious enough to result in significant long-term disability that I know of (I was a safety chair of the region a few years ago). There have been some lesser injuries from which people pretty much fully recovered, and there have been many cars damaged over the years. So the sport is certainly risky in terms of car damage (consider getting track insurance), but I don't see it as being overly risky in terms of injury to people. When we hear about DE injuries and fatalities, we need to keep in mind that about 100 million DE miles are driven in the US each year. So if we have one or two DE fatalities a year (I'm excluding racing, dirt tracks, drag strips, etc.), the number of DE fatalities per mile driven is similar to road driving, and even if the number of fatalities is 2-4x that number, the absolute risk is arguably still not high. If a DE organization has a safety record substantially worse than this, they need to get their act together or go out of business.

Perhaps we also need to talk about the purpose of DE. We can call it driver education, but the reality is that no one needs to learn about 'the line', threshold and trailbraking, etc. in order to be a safer driver on the road. If the goal is better safety on the road, a program like 'street survival' makes more sense than track DE, and is generally more cost-effective. Everyone I know goes to the track to have fun driving faster than they can drive on the road, eventually getting closer to the limits of how fast their car can go. For some, DE is also a gateway to racing. I don't see how speed limits are compatible with DE (though instructors should certainly limit speeds of students as they think necessary, without the distraction of watching the speedometer).

Are newer street sports cars too fast for the track without added safety equipment? The fact is that Porsche and others keep making them, and people keep buying them, and they continue to get faster as power increases and tires get grippier. I would much rather see the owners of those cars drive them fast on tracks rather than the public roads on which my family and friends drive, and I think it's unrealistic to expect that student-level drivers are going to put roll bars and harnesses in their cars to do their earlier track days. Some may long for the good ol' days when cars were slower, but the demographics of the paddock will continue to move in the direction of faster cars.

Regarding instruction without instructors in the right seat, I encourage someone developing that model and seeing how the market responds. If it works well, maybe others will follow suit. Meanwhile, I don't see any basis for prohibiting instructors in the right seat, since doing so is a personal choice.

disden

One thing that needs to be addressed, unfortunately I have never seen this done before, is separating drivers not just by experience level, but by the vehicle driven. High HP cars sharing the track with tiny HP cars can lead to some very dangerous situations in my opinion. Runs groups, if able, should be split up accordingly to allow both types of cars to enjoy the track. Just last weekend I came barreling down a long straight towards turn 1 in my RS only to find a completely bone stock VW GTI slowly taking the turn...I darn near smashed into the rear of it. No clue why someone in advanced would be driving so slow in a car that is not really ideal for track duty. Separating drivers by experience and car type could make sessions much smoother and the track time more enjoyable.

ExMB

You don't state what run group you were in. But based on your comment your awareness was not up to that required - you should've seen that way early and made adjustments. Regardless, the other driver/car could've stepped down a run group or two. But maybe it also was an instructor taken a student for a ride in the next higher run group to show a principle and/or level expectations that are required.

fatbillybob

SCCA is all multi-class racing which is all I do. You may want to think about that senario. A big speed differential means easy passing and being easily overtaken. That can help with passing a group of slower cars fighting for position. You want to clear those cars or have that fast car pass ASAP so the race does not get ruined. It's really the same in HPDE too. The biggest risks are taken by drivers that are nearly equal. It could be a fast car with slow driver vs. a slowcar with fast driver. Awareness is what is needed.

hf1

IMO, the skill/ability of the driver matters MUCH more than the speed/power of the car. You don't need HP to make ANY car fly, if you can keep momentum. A good driver is smooth, aware, and predictable regardless of his car's abilities. A bad driver is unpredictable (over-brakes, doesn't understand the line, etc.) regardless of the speed/power of his car, hence much more dangerous.

The problem with slow and unpredictable drivers in advanced groups comes much more from bad driver-promotion policies and ego (refusal to "self-demote" to a group more appropriate to one's skill and speed after he was wrongfully "promoted") than from speed/power differential of the cars. I've seen instructors(!) who lack the skills to be in the Red (instructors) or Black groups, which only gets compounded when their car is slow, to boot.

EDIT: This was in response to disden.