StoogeMoe

This is a question for you doctors out there...

Do you really think that a physical or EKG would have foretold what was going to happen to this poor chap? Is that a 100% definitive test?

ace37

Coochas

No, unless there was something very abnormal with the EKG. Many people have normal EKGs at rest that become abnormal when the body becomes stressed (hence "stress tests"). There are many other reasons a driver could become incapacitated.
There seems to be so much speculation in this thread that this was definitely a medical issue. Has anyone considered that he may have simply 'hit the wrong pedal' to slow down? Or maybe he was distracted by something?
I of course have no idea what happened. Perhaps it is as simple as a catastrophic medical issue.

As far as physicals go, people will manage to get around them and present certificates of good health. I recall a guy a few years ago who died from a head bleed after his corvette race car crashed. It came out that he was on coumadin, a powerful blood thinner. I'm sure he knew that this was a crazy risk but still went ahead and drove his race car.

Capital Porsche

Awful news. Bob was a great guy, endlessly wearing a smile. He'd stop by the dealership every couple months to say "hello" and drop off some club magazines. Our local North Florida region usually has about 20 very-active members (and dozens of others), and they were all very close to Bob. Prayers going out to his family and friends!

AO

That, right there, is age discrimination. I'm not arguing with you thought process, but someone will claim that at 49, they are more fit than a 280lb 29 y.o. standing next to them, and they'd be right. If you're going to require it, then you probably need it for EVERYONE.

Jon D

AO

What would that actually accomplish?

It would be voluntary to self-identify - and in this case, it's not clear if the driver had any kind of identifiable pre-existing condition. Acknowledging that it puts stresses on your body, probably will not dissuade anyone from doing a HPDE day, and it likely will not indemnify PCA or the organizers any more. But let's objectively talk about this situation. The student was an intermediate/advanced student (in our region Blue is advanced). Probably has several HPDE's under his belt and knows several of the instructors. Acknowledging the stresses of a HPDE for the 20th time will not make him or her think twice. It's their 20th time! Additionally, if I were the instructor, given this guys history, I wouldn't have thought twice about it, unless there were clear signs that he was having health issues. I would probably ask, "How are you feeling?" like I normally do, but I'm not a medical professional, so if he says, he's good to go, then so am I in all likelihood.

But let's say someone did have a pre-existing condition and self-identified. Maybe for the green group newbies that would be a benefit (minimally) to add to the equation when evaluating the student, but once that student has progressed to the upper ranks, it becomes a moot point. Again, the best we can do as instructors is ask, "How are you feeling?" Without medical training, I think it's a detriment.

The only way to be 100% safe is to not participate. That seems like a load of BS to me. Nothing can be risk free. But I'm sure once the lawyers get done with this case, we may see some changes in how students are instructed on the track in an attempt to de-risk it. If instructors are not allow to ride shotgun, then the risk to life is greatly reduced. If someone has a "medical event" while driving, then the damage is somewhat contained, but that also has downsides as I'm sure someone will point out. No perfect solution, but some may be less costly for the underwriters.

Mike in Chi

ace37

I do object to the label and don't agree with the conclusion. I should have said I was thinking of two things, physical stamina and the risk of a stroke/TIA/heart attack. The literature has abundant references quantifying how physical stamina degrades and the risks of stroke/TIA/heart attack increase as we age. While your counterpoint example is absolutely true, it is intentionally not a median case but rather a case showing the overlap of statistical tails.

That said, thinking further I also agree with your later conclusion that just requiring a physical might not solve anything. If it won't meaningfully reduce the risk of overexertion, a stroke, or a heart attack causing harm or death on a racetrack, there's no sense requiring it of anyone.

Would a stress test provide meaningful results to address this fundamental question or concern?

dennis macchio

conjecture and theories will float for a while, but remains a consistent is that you can never take our sport lightly.....that is why I preach respect, respect, respect, No matter what the cause, the reality is that things can go wrong very quickly. Prayers out to both.....Dennis

ProCoach

docwyte

That's exactly my point. For your car to have a proper setup (As an instructor, I wouldn't have gotten in your car with the harness bar, or the harnesses and stock seats) you have to spend thousands of dollars and install a rollbar that isn't the easiest thing to put in and remove. The rollbar is an impediment especially for those using their cars as DD and needing the back seats to carry around small children.

That said, you can buy a complete track car for not a whole lot of money. Rather than putting thousands of dollars into a really nice,expensive 911, then being unhappy with the compromises that makes to it as a DD, just buy a miata, or an E30, or an E36 or whatever...

I'll give you my own example. Some years ago as I got into DE and autox, a five-point harness seemed like a good idea for both safety and car control reasons. Okay, got it, installed it. Got a harness bar. Some years later, local PCA decides that for my harness to be safe, my seats need to be ones designed to route the shoulder straps. Makes sense (despite the extra harness bits I already had that are intended to keep the shoulder straps in position during an incident). So out go my factory sport seats, in go a pair of gently used Recaro SRDs. Fast forward to last year, another region's track chair shared his concern that my equipment put me at danger were I to roll the car and the roof collapse. I should install a roll cage or at least a bar. He's right, there is a risk, bless him for looking out for me. But we've arrived at a point where to install a harness, I need to start cutting up my car, to manage a very small risk. As I said to Alexa just the other day, I don't know 'bout that.[/QUOTE]

needmoregarage

Does anyone know if they were in OEM 3 point seat belts - or if there were harnesses in the car? If yes to harnesses - anyone know if they driver and/or instructor were wearing head/neck restraints?

Thoughts are with the families and everyone touched by this tragedy.

Mike in Chi

I know it is not new. Hence my post.

Akunob

Could we please inject some perspective here! All this talk of stress on the body while true is hardly material given that the average DE session only lasts 22-25 minutes, (not exactly a 3 hour or longer endurance event). I appreciate that as we age, those 25 mins can feel quite strenuous however I doubt, in the instances where unfortunately elderly drivers have passed at events, that the DE session(s) caused their medical condition. When our ticker stops ticking, time’s up. It’s as simple as that. Unless we bar men over a certain age from driving then it’s simply part of the unexpected risk (not much different than a car that passed tech, leaking oil on the track)! The unexpected will happen, it’s the law of averages. BTW over 50 yrs old and we are all at risk.

Get an annual physical because you believe in preventative care and you want to ensure that you are in good health, not for DE sign offs. As far as safety equipment goes, short of a purpose built race car, there will always be certain compromises. The appeal of DE’s is bringing our street car to the track, having it tech’ed and hitting the track to LEARN about its full potential in a ‘safe’ environment under instruction and at the end of the day, hopefully driving your street car back home with a better understanding and appreciation for its potential. If roll cages, harness bars, full cages, HANS devices, 5 or 6 point belts etc. we’re mandated, I suspect attendance at DE’s would drop to the point of being uneconomic for the organizers to host events.