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The “Madison Ave” (standard design testing loop, also at Putnam Park and just before Station 13 at VIR on the left) is used for bikes, karts and racing cars seeking to replicate tight, square street-circuit complexes for testing purposes. I don’t remember it being used for any track days other than ride-and-drive events for manufacturers in the last couple decades.
There is no question that the g-loadings in Turn 9 leading into the front straight are some of the highest and longest duration corners anywhere (as is Turn 3), so that is an area of stress for most drivers.
The idea of sanitizing the experience by mandating the use of this chicane would be tragic, IMO.
I agree with Peter. As sad and tragic as this is, you can't design every potential scenario out of a racetrack. OK, you can...it's called sitting at home on the couch. Racing and track days are dangerous. We do everything we can to mitigate and plan for those dangers, but in the end, the potential for an incident will always exist. You can name just about any track and point to a spot that, if this exact same situation happened, would end up with a very similar outcome.
I'd be shocked if any of the organizations mandated that a DE participant have to get a physical (and show proof!) to participate. It's not a cost thing, its a barrier to participate thing and the organizations are trying to have as few barriers as possible. Like it or not, the organizations, whether club or for profit, want their events full and want to make money. They're willing to accept risk in order to do so.
As instructors, we have a decision to make, are we, personally, willing to accept the risk that the organization is and continue to get in the right hand seats? For the most part, all of my students have been very respectful, good listeners and well aware of the power underneath their right foot. However, I won't lie that when I see that I'm paired up with someone in a 400+hp car, I'm a little worried until I'm able to meet them and feel them out. So far I've never had to go back to the CI and tell them that I'm uncomfortable with the situation and won't be getting in the car....
Her reply was a simple one.
"This is the game you choose to play. This is what the kids and I think about every time you leave the house with your track car."
I had no answer for her ".
I'd be shocked if any of the organizations mandated that a DE participant have to get a physical (and show proof!) to participate.
As instructors, we have a decision to make, are we, personally, willing to accept the risk that the organization is and continue to get in the right hand seats?
So far I've never had to go back to the CI and tell them that I'm uncomfortable with the situation and won't be getting in the car....
Agreed, and not suggesting that that “barrier” be instituted, or mandated. But no harm in recommending.
Bingo. It pains me to hear, repeated over and over again in the instructor meetings, that “you, as the instructor, are in control of the car.” NO! You are NOT “in control” of the car from the right seat... Right seat instruction is the crux of almost all DE programs, up to a point. But this is not twenty-five years ago, when we were in Rabbits, 914’s and 924’s...
Glad to here that, but as instructors, you need to trust your gut and DO JUST THAT, if you have ANY concerns at all.
In this particular case, not at all certain this could have been foreseen...
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
I'd be shocked if any of the organizations mandated that a DE participant have to get a physical (and show proof!) to participate. It's not a cost thing, its a barrier to participate thing and the organizations are trying to have as few barriers as possible. Like it or not, the organizations, whether club or for profit, want their events full and want to make money. They're willing to accept risk in order to do so.
As instructors, we have a decision to make, are we, personally, willing to accept the risk that the organization is and continue to get in the right hand seats? For the most part, all of my students have been very respectful, good listeners and well aware of the power underneath their right foot. However, I won't lie that when I see that I'm paired up with someone in a 400+hp car, I'm a little worried until I'm able to meet them and feel them out. So far I've never had to go back to the CI and tell them that I'm uncomfortable with the situation and won't be getting in the car....
I agree, I'd guess if this were to occur it would be driven by the organizing club's insurance carrier demanding it. While this event is sad I'd guess it doesn't happen frequently enough for that to be demanded.
There was a similar event several years ago at HPR where during a club race a driver had what they think was heatstroke and hit the barrier, car caught fire, he made it the hospital but didn't survive. Since you are local Docwyte (if you don't know the story) the shade sail pavillion at HPR was built in his memory.
Very sad.
I told my wife about this last night in the event that she happened to hear about it first and then came to me with it.
Her reply was a simple one.
"This is the game you choose to play. This is what the kids and I think about every time you leave the house with your track car."
I had no answer for her.
Very sad incident. Hope it's a long time before we here of something like this again.
Praying the families and friends affected by this fatality and injury can get through it in one "peace".
There is no answer because - there is no answer. I am a relative newcomer to this sport but have owned and flown regularly several high performance airplanes for the last 25 years. Every time some high profile person (Denver, JFK Jr,.) or a fellow pilot "augured in", the speech came from the wife and kids. I had no answer then and I have no answer now. It all really comes down to how much one is willing to curtail activities to allay the fears of loved ones - tough balancing act.
Nickshu, you're talking about Jerry S, a very experienced track driver who'd been active in the local PCA for decades. I didn't know him well but was shocked to hear of the accident and his death. This current accident shows that the student can be a good listener and respectful and still bad stuff can happen. Jack Baruth wrote an article for R&T about the declining instructor corps due to the abilities of modern cars. I do wonder how much longer right side instruction will continue. I agree with Peter, we are NOT in control from the right hand seat!
911carrerradriver, I was active duty Coast Guard and my base responded when JFK Jr crashed. Bottom line, he was an idiot and never should've been flying then...
Agreed, and not suggesting that that “barrier” be instituted, or mandated. But no harm in recommending.
Bingo. It pains me to hear, repeated over and over again in the instructor meetings, that “you, as the instructor, are in control of the car.” NO! You are NOT “in control” of the car from the right seat... Right seat instruction is the crux of almost all DE programs, up to a point. But this is not twenty-five years ago, when we were in Rabbits, 914’s and 924’s...
Glad to here that, but as instructors, you need to trust your gut and DO JUST THAT, if you have ANY concerns at all.
In this particular case, not at all certain this could have been foreseen...
Very sad and condolences to all involved. I know several instructors from Suncoast were up there this weekend.
Very true, we are not in control.
Here is my question, while we do not know exactly what happened, it sounds like the driver had a medical emergency and was not able to slow the car down. That might not be the case in this incidence, but it could be the case another time. What can we do to slow the car down from the right seat. Pull the handbrake, if there is one, force a downshift, if in a manual transmission, turn the steering wheel at what point to minimize impact?
With newer PDK cars with electronic parking brakes what are our options?
Ever done a no brakes excercise? Technically turning is braking but forcing the car I to a spin is risky....especially in gravel
I had a high speed bad wreck on oil, realized i was a passenger after my save efforts failed.
Pulled in my feet, hugged myself and for some reason took a larger breath and braced for impact (blue angels high G load runs came to mind for some reason)
remember every instant, roll, bump all too vividly......Walked away no injury....thank God my wife and kids hadn't gotten to the track yet
it's hard to give up control.....but think of how you can minimize damage to your body and confidence in the safety gear
Just something to ponder. According to Google Earth Pro, the distance from the Turn 1 turn-in point at Roebling Road (on a straight line) to the tire barrier is 320 feet. Assuming the Porsche C4 was traveling somewhere in the range of 110 mph (a typical speed for a Blue student at Roebling), the instructor had roughly 2 seconds before impact (160 feet per second). So, before you start running through all the scenarios of grabbing the emergency brake...or yanking the wheel...or forcing a downshift... just count to TWO (one-thousand-one, one-thousand-two, BOOM). At that speed, we're just passengers.
As an instructor, I never thought I would have the mental clarity or reaction speed to grab a steering wheel in an emergency situation. But when a student of mine froze going into Turn 1 at Sebring, I was able to steer the car safely away from danger. But Sebring Turn 1 has a huge amount of run-off. Not Roebling.
Ever done a no brakes excercise? Technically turning is braking but forcing the car I to a spin is risky....especially in gravel
I had a high speed bad wreck on oil, realized i was a passenger after my save efforts failed.
Pulled in my feet, hugged myself and for some reason took a larger breath and braced for impact (blue angels high G load runs came to mind for some reason)
remember every instant, roll, bump all too vividly......Walked away no injury....thank God my wife and kids hadn't gotten to the track yet
it's hard to give up control.....but think of how you can minimize damage to your body and confidence in the safety gear
not saying it will work but I'm a believer
Yes, did no brake exercise during instructor training back in 2000. And these things are discussed at the annual Instructor training schools but the point of view is typically assuming both student and instructor are conscious and participating. We need to add a discussion of what to do when you are in the right seat and the left seat is no longer participating. As a new board member with Suncoast I am going to my first board meeting tomorrow night and I am pretty sure some of the other board members were at RRR this weekend so I guarantee it will be discussed.
Yes, did no brake exercise during instructor training back in 2000. And these things are discussed at the annual Instructor training schools but the point of view is typically assuming both student and instructor are conscious and participating. We need to add a discussion of what to do when you are in the right seat and the left seat is no longer participating.
As a new board member with Suncoast I am going to my first board meeting tomorrow night and I am pretty sure some of the other board members were at RRR this weekend so I guarantee it will be discussed.
Thank you and know that all instructors will appreciate an elevated priority in discussing this potential scenario. Suncoast runs an EXCELLENT program and has for many years.
As a right seat instructor, I've experienced TWICE the left seat occupant "freezing up," becoming unresponsive to my commands or good sense, but fully conscious and with their right foot fully depressing the throttle as we were approaching fast corners (and in both instances, we left the road despite my exhortations, physical intervention and switching off of the ignition), this can and does happen...
02-12-2018, 10:11 AM
