Roebling death
03-18-2018, 10:36 AM
#376
Banned
Wrong. Often times (most of the time) it’s TOO LATE to “get pitted in” BEFORE a situation develops that results in contact.
For ME, It hasn’t “worked” a few times for me in the right seat and it didn’t work for this fellow in Roebling (or at CMP or at Summit HyperDrive, shall I go on?)
Folks seem to think these situations are static, that there is plenty of time to “manage” a potential situation. That’s sometimes true. Many times, it is not.
03-18-2018, 10:55 AM
#377
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I read what you’re saying as: “because these rules, protocols and procedures are in place, there IS NO (not just SHOULDN’T BE a) problem maintaining COMPLETE CONTROL of the driver by the right-seat instructor.”
A pronouncement...
THAT is what prompted me to respond: “wrong.” I stand by that, because in my experience, that is NOT TRUE.
Over the last decade and a half, I have seen a gradual transfer of PRIMARY responsibility, championed and promoted by the two largest marque clubs and in an effort to improve safety, FROM the driver in HPDE events to the right-seat instructor.
While I appreciate the motivation for doing so, in the end, it’s not physically possible. And as long as ALL parties (insurance companies, marque club organizers, driver and right-seat instructor) accept this, they can make their own decisions.
Things dont always go according to plan. You said they do, at least with instructor control. You’re wrong, in that premise.
I agree with you that no further rules or regulations are required.
A pronouncement...
THAT is what prompted me to respond: “wrong.” I stand by that, because in my experience, that is NOT TRUE.
Over the last decade and a half, I have seen a gradual transfer of PRIMARY responsibility, championed and promoted by the two largest marque clubs and in an effort to improve safety, FROM the driver in HPDE events to the right-seat instructor.
While I appreciate the motivation for doing so, in the end, it’s not physically possible. And as long as ALL parties (insurance companies, marque club organizers, driver and right-seat instructor) accept this, they can make their own decisions.
Things dont always go according to plan. You said they do, at least with instructor control. You’re wrong, in that premise.
I agree with you that no further rules or regulations are required.
03-18-2018, 12:55 PM
#378
Drifting
Just read thru this entire thread and like the various perspectives. I use to instruct far more than today due to schedule limitations but the 1 thing I was never bashful about was telling a driver they were driving beyond their ability. I did make a few drivers pit in following a few laps to simply reiterate why they were there and the primary purpose of HPDE. Most followed the plan perfectly and built up to speed as their ability increased but do know that once you're at speed there's is nothing the instructor can do when a mistake or mechanical takes place. You are unfortunately along for the ride and I know this is from first hand experience, ainad deploy,net and all. Riding in the passenger seat is a high risk proposition and its so important to minimize the risk recognizing there's so much beyond the instructors control once your at speed. I do hope the instructor in this case recovers and is able to get back to the activity he so dearly enjoys.
03-18-2018, 02:44 PM
#379
Race Car
This is Sad and Sobering news., Condolences and prayers to the families of those involved.
A long time ago, back when auto insurers were covering 'car control clinics' and Advanced Drivers ed, some clubs were creating traffic cone chicanes on the straights to limit top speed. It wasn't popular, and they gradually disappeared. But it limited the top speed.
A long time ago, back when auto insurers were covering 'car control clinics' and Advanced Drivers ed, some clubs were creating traffic cone chicanes on the straights to limit top speed. It wasn't popular, and they gradually disappeared. But it limited the top speed.
03-18-2018, 03:28 PM
#380
We attended our first DE that weekend at Roebling and just attended the Zone 2 VIR event with my girlfriend. We both drove and both of us had beyond excellent instructors. This is a dangerous sport, things happen, hell on our way up there we recieved news of a bridge falling on helpless drivers waiting at a stop light. I can tell you I so appreciate the PCA and the fearless instructors for organizing this opportunity to teach us young drivers how to drive.
03-18-2018, 04:01 PM
#381
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We attended our first DE that weekend at Roebling and just attended the Zone 2 VIR event with my girlfriend. We both drove and both of us had beyond excellent instructors. This is a dangerous sport, things happen, hell on our way up there we recieved news of a bridge falling on helpless drivers waiting at a stop light. I can tell you I so appreciate the PCA and the fearless instructors for organizing this opportunity to teach us young drivers how to drive.
03-19-2018, 07:21 PM
#382
Race Director
maybe todays cars with the speed they can accomplish at a race track need further safety than 3 point and air bags. Maybe you know...I don't....but aren't street cars safety tested at usual road going speeds and not there top velocity? I doubt Porsche has taken a Carrera and ran it up to 150mph and crashed it in a wall.
03-19-2018, 09:44 PM
#383
Drifting
Yes, most safety systems are tested at normal road going speeds
Going faster puts you into another realm...............
therefore, the kinetic energy of an object is proportional to the square of its velocity (speed). In other words, If there is a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four. If there is a threefold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of nine.
Going faster puts you into another realm...............
therefore, the kinetic energy of an object is proportional to the square of its velocity (speed). In other words, If there is a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four. If there is a threefold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of nine.
03-19-2018, 10:02 PM
#384
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^^^^ Yikes!
03-21-2018, 01:48 PM
#385
Just got back from my first event after 18 months away from the sport following a bad wreck. I had a new build and drove 5/10ths to both check out the car and slowly rebuild my lost driving skills. I ran in the intermediate run group.
It is shocking to see how fast the hardware was at this event. While there were a few Caymans and 911s driving as usual, there were a bunch of GTB cars, Z06s, Camaro SS, R8, etc. that were just incredibly fast. The drivers were not hitting their marks and were relying on modern tech tires and traction control to get them around the track quickly. I had 3 people go off right in front of me in 5 sessions; there were more as black flags were common. I agree with people here; if I were an instructor I'm not sure I'd want to sit in on those cars. The problem is; they're fast so they get moved up to intermediate. How do their skills improve when driving solo? Most people do not really want to invest in coaching and after your first few events, you're on your own with most clubs.. Fortunately I went with an instructor who managed to go out 1 time per day with me and kick me in the @#$...
It is shocking to see how fast the hardware was at this event. While there were a few Caymans and 911s driving as usual, there were a bunch of GTB cars, Z06s, Camaro SS, R8, etc. that were just incredibly fast. The drivers were not hitting their marks and were relying on modern tech tires and traction control to get them around the track quickly. I had 3 people go off right in front of me in 5 sessions; there were more as black flags were common. I agree with people here; if I were an instructor I'm not sure I'd want to sit in on those cars. The problem is; they're fast so they get moved up to intermediate. How do their skills improve when driving solo? Most people do not really want to invest in coaching and after your first few events, you're on your own with most clubs.. Fortunately I went with an instructor who managed to go out 1 time per day with me and kick me in the @#$...
03-21-2018, 02:18 PM
#386
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The drivers were not hitting their marks and were relying on modern tech tires and traction control to get them around the track quickly. I had 3 people go off right in front of me in 5 sessions; there were more as black flags were common. I agree with people here; if I were an instructor I'm not sure I'd want to sit in on those cars. The problem is; they're fast so they get moved up to intermediate. How do their skills improve when driving solo?
I remember this same discussion in 1995-96 when the E36 M3 came out. We had several hit the guardrails at the exit of the Fish Hook at a Tarheel Chapter BMWCCA event at Rockingham, when I was the CI (driving a brand new E36 M3 LTW, which gave me no issues).
ALL were advanced/instructor driven cars and more than one person was shaking their heads going "these damn things are TOO fast..."
There was even discussion about banning the M3 from chapter HPDE events, because "the car's capability was beyond even an advanced driver's ability to control it, until it is too late..."
Thankfully, reason prevailed and those cars were integrated well into future events, but people who were driving them took MUCH more care and paid MUCH more attention.
For whatever reason, that attention, concentration, focus or personal responsibility does not seem to be as common, now..
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03-21-2018, 03:10 PM
#387
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Interesting ... any thoughts on what the reason(s) may be? Maybe the greatly improved safety in pro racing (e.g., F1) has fostered a perception of DE also being safer? Could there be a greater feeling of safety in DE due to stability control systems, use of HANS, etc.? A different perception of risk or need to manage risk due to a generational difference?
03-21-2018, 03:34 PM
#388
Smh...
I remember this same discussion in 1995-96 when the E36 M3 came out. We had several hit the guardrails at the exit of the Fish Hook at a Tarheel Chapter BMWCCA event at Rockingham, when I was the CI (driving a brand new E36 M3 LTW, which gave me no issues).
ALL were advanced/instructor driven cars and more than one person was shaking their heads going "these damn things are TOO fast..."
There was even discussion about banning the M3 from chapter HPDE events, because "the car's capability was beyond even an advanced driver's ability to control it, until it is too late..."
Thankfully, reason prevailed and those cars were integrated well into future events, but people who were driving them took MUCH more care and paid MUCH more attention.
For whatever reason, that attention, concentration, focus or personal responsibility does not seem to be as common, now..
I remember this same discussion in 1995-96 when the E36 M3 came out. We had several hit the guardrails at the exit of the Fish Hook at a Tarheel Chapter BMWCCA event at Rockingham, when I was the CI (driving a brand new E36 M3 LTW, which gave me no issues).
ALL were advanced/instructor driven cars and more than one person was shaking their heads going "these damn things are TOO fast..."
There was even discussion about banning the M3 from chapter HPDE events, because "the car's capability was beyond even an advanced driver's ability to control it, until it is too late..."
Thankfully, reason prevailed and those cars were integrated well into future events, but people who were driving them took MUCH more care and paid MUCH more attention.
For whatever reason, that attention, concentration, focus or personal responsibility does not seem to be as common, now..
03-21-2018, 04:26 PM
#389
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I personally like it when certain clubs/regions mix things up and have instructors ride with "solo" drivers, even if just for one or two sessions. Coming back to the sport, I need seat time to learn my car and rebuild my skills and a coach to set me straight every now and then so that I know what to work on.
Good cross-polination of ideas when this happens, for sure. Recalibrating the butt is expedited is easier with a well calibrated one riding right seat, for quite a few drivers.
03-21-2018, 06:39 PM
#390
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Smh...
I remember this same discussion in 1995-96 when the E36 M3 came out. We had several hit the guardrails at the exit of the Fish Hook at a Tarheel Chapter BMWCCA event at Rockingham, when I was the CI (driving a brand new E36 M3 LTW, which gave me no issues).
ALL were advanced/instructor driven cars and more than one person was shaking their heads going "these damn things are TOO fast..."
There was even discussion about banning the M3 from chapter HPDE events, because "the car's capability was beyond even an advanced driver's ability to control it, until it is too late..."
Thankfully, reason prevailed and those cars were integrated well into future events, but people who were driving them took MUCH more care and paid MUCH more attention.
For whatever reason, that attention, concentration, focus or personal responsibility does not seem to be as common, now..
I remember this same discussion in 1995-96 when the E36 M3 came out. We had several hit the guardrails at the exit of the Fish Hook at a Tarheel Chapter BMWCCA event at Rockingham, when I was the CI (driving a brand new E36 M3 LTW, which gave me no issues).
ALL were advanced/instructor driven cars and more than one person was shaking their heads going "these damn things are TOO fast..."
There was even discussion about banning the M3 from chapter HPDE events, because "the car's capability was beyond even an advanced driver's ability to control it, until it is too late..."
Thankfully, reason prevailed and those cars were integrated well into future events, but people who were driving them took MUCH more care and paid MUCH more attention.
For whatever reason, that attention, concentration, focus or personal responsibility does not seem to be as common, now..