People who overstate their driving ability. The reality of correcting oversteer.
02-02-2018, 07:45 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
you mentioned "no two oversteers are the same" i suggest that if they are controllable, they are dealt with the same technique. thats all.
Well, if it is out of control, you are going to spin and it cant be corrected.. if it is controllable........ it is all recovered and controlled the same.... by keeping in steering inputs in synch with the rear of the car. thats all ...just trying to break it down to a simple technique and universal condition. Think drifting and how controllable it can be by someone that knows car control.
Well, if it is out of control, you are going to spin and it cant be corrected.. if it is controllable........ it is all recovered and controlled the same.... by keeping in steering inputs in synch with the rear of the car. thats all ...just trying to break it down to a simple technique and universal condition. Think drifting and how controllable it can be by someone that knows car control.
02-03-2018, 08:09 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by mhm993
Remember, 90% of men an women think they're above average drivers.
02-03-2018, 10:26 AM
#34
02-03-2018, 02:52 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
"oversteer" is NOT always, the car being out of control. There are two types of oversteer, the type that can not be controlled and the kind that can be controlled. If there is too much energy vs the grip in the rear and front end no correction can save it. this is usually driver induced unless you get tapped in the rear bumper . 
Anyone can put a car in oversteer. the skill is bringing the car back from oversteer when you have "controllable oversteer". many, even racers, do NOT have a good skill in recovering oversteer because they dont understand, react in panic (too fast , too much input) or have not practiced the steering input to recover, which is i like to describe, as a "string" being tied from the steering to the rear end. the rate and amount of recovery has to be matched and be in synch. ever see a tank slapper or a spin the opposite direction of the initial oversteer, the driver got it wrong and is NOT in synch.
practice at slower speeds , at different degree of throttle and steering, and learn to recover, and eventually, it will be second nature. its the most satisfying parts of driving on the track.
Have you ever seen my car pointed in the wrong direction rain or shine?
Anyone can put a car in oversteer. the skill is bringing the car back from oversteer when you have "controllable oversteer". many, even racers, do NOT have a good skill in recovering oversteer because they dont understand, react in panic (too fast , too much input) or have not practiced the steering input to recover, which is i like to describe, as a "string" being tied from the steering to the rear end. the rate and amount of recovery has to be matched and be in synch. ever see a tank slapper or a spin the opposite direction of the initial oversteer, the driver got it wrong and is NOT in synch.practice at slower speeds , at different degree of throttle and steering, and learn to recover, and eventually, it will be second nature. its the most satisfying parts of driving on the track.
Have you ever seen my car pointed in the wrong direction rain or shine?
I remember riding with a very talented local driver a few years ago and he was so far ahead of the car a step out was just a non-event, his hands and feet were very well connected and when he had to catch the rear of the car you could see him release the steering angle as he made his slight lift. The effect was a brief step out and down the track we went.
I have always said I would love a safe area other that a skip pad to be able to induce and catch these events.
02-03-2018, 03:56 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
I believe a common issue that complicates correction of oversteer is patience. I believe that a lot of driver's hands respond to the condition (sometimes too slow, too late or too much) but when the car doesn't respond immediately, the next action is a lift and that is when the fun begins. The weight transfers to the front, the front tires grip as the rear tires lose grip and a tank slapper is well underway.
I remember riding with a very talented local driver a few years ago and he was so far ahead of the car a step out was just a non-event, his hands and feet were very well connected and when he had to catch the rear of the car you could see him release the steering angle as he made his slight lift. The effect was a brief step out and down the track we went.
I have always said I would love a safe area other that a skip pad to be able to induce and catch these events.
I remember riding with a very talented local driver a few years ago and he was so far ahead of the car a step out was just a non-event, his hands and feet were very well connected and when he had to catch the rear of the car you could see him release the steering angle as he made his slight lift. The effect was a brief step out and down the track we went.
I have always said I would love a safe area other that a skip pad to be able to induce and catch these events.
02-03-2018, 04:46 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Subscribed...and buy the by, it’s not usually the oversteer at speed but when the car catches. That’s the second input correction most aren’t ready for. Snow and skid pads don’t replicate that ‘Snap’
The OP hit the nail, how do you practice this part?
The OP hit the nail, how do you practice this part?
02-03-2018, 06:02 PM
#39
Let's face it, basically no one goes to rally school, so it's little more than a theoretical explanation.
People aren't going to rally school, nor are they practicing correcting oversteer at 70mph at DE days.
Most people don't get to "practice" snap oversteer but a few times in their lives. (often, moments before a crash)
I just find it absurd for guys to think they are experts on something they've literally done once or twice in their entire lives.
The end result is guys just parroting what they've read (magazine racers)
Don't lift! Counter steer! etc. But, they've really only done it once or twice themselves on a track.
People aren't going to rally school, nor are they practicing correcting oversteer at 70mph at DE days.
Most people don't get to "practice" snap oversteer but a few times in their lives. (often, moments before a crash)
I just find it absurd for guys to think they are experts on something they've literally done once or twice in their entire lives.
The end result is guys just parroting what they've read (magazine racers)
Don't lift! Counter steer! etc. But, they've really only done it once or twice themselves on a track.
02-03-2018, 06:04 PM
#40
Is that when the car spins around?
This happens b/c the driver did what wrong?
Not counter steer at all?
Or not reverse the counter steer once the car started turning the other way pendulum ?
02-03-2018, 06:11 PM
#41
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It does happen when the initial pause and correction (often referred to as counter-steering) timing is NOT correct.
Yes, a correction is required.
If you RECOVER (referred to by you as a "reverse the counter-steer") AFTER the correction with the incorrect timing, and/or DON'T GET OUT OF THE GAS as it's coming back into line, you spin the other way. Like a pendulum.
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02-03-2018, 06:14 PM
#42
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Let's face it, basically no one goes to rally school, so it's little more than a theoretical explanation.
People aren't going to rally school, nor are they practicing correcting oversteer at 70mph at DE days.
Most people don't get to "practice" snap oversteer but a few times in their lives. (often, moments before a crash)
I just find it absurd for guys to think they are experts on something they've literally done once or twice in their entire lives.
The end result is guys just parroting what they've read (magazine racers)
Don't lift! Counter steer! etc. But, they've really only done it once or twice themselves on a track.
People aren't going to rally school, nor are they practicing correcting oversteer at 70mph at DE days.
Most people don't get to "practice" snap oversteer but a few times in their lives. (often, moments before a crash)
I just find it absurd for guys to think they are experts on something they've literally done once or twice in their entire lives.
The end result is guys just parroting what they've read (magazine racers)
Don't lift! Counter steer! etc. But, they've really only done it once or twice themselves on a track.
The "don't lift" mantra is so much macho BS. It just means that ninety percent of the time, you'll hit whatever you were going to hit,HARDER. The other ten percent is pure-t luck.
02-03-2018, 08:02 PM
#44
Three Wheelin'
02-03-2018, 09:06 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
All true. THAT is why skid-pad training is the first thing the proven, professional schools incorporate into their training. They start practicing correction-pause-recovery of an oversteer condition at 25-35 mph, then higher, if the skid pad is larger. UNTIL IT'S SECOND NATURE.
The "don't lift" mantra is so much macho BS. It just means that ninety percent of the time, you'll hit whatever you were going to hit,HARDER. The other ten percent is pure-t luck.
The "don't lift" mantra is so much macho BS. It just means that ninety percent of the time, you'll hit whatever you were going to hit,HARDER. The other ten percent is pure-t luck.
I was taught this in race school. Having learned what cars are likely to do as they loose grip and how to take advantage of the situation.
Most that slide out with oversteer will snap back and cross the track backwards in the other direction. Witness all the skid marks out of turn 10 at Mosport that lead directly into the pit wall. Ie: Right handed turn then crashing to the right side of the track after a spin.
That instant when the car regains traction and the ‘flick of counter correction’ is crucial. That’s a tough situation to replicate safely and rarely practicable.