Driving Skills, continued
12-31-2017, 04:05 PM
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Driving Skills, continued
Happy, safe and fast(er) New Years to all RL'ers!
Anyone catch the article in February '18 Automobile mag, written by Jethro Bovingtdon, about Rob Wilson of New Zealand fame? I would consider this article to be a part of a series of "edumacation," informational "downloads," call it what you want, in an attempt to understand how to be a better driver. Last time it was "coasting", patience, etc. A concept that had been introduced to me via pro coaching, one that I continue to work on and on-line discussion was very interesting and helpful. This one however is a brand new concept (for me). I understand subtleties, minute movement, but this "technique" is different than what I have been taught. Rob Wilson has the chops, both as a successful racer and now a very successful coach, having worked (or continuing to work with) some pretty recognized drivers. He teaches his students on a Vauxhall Astra, a front wheel drive car. The following is quoted from the article so the author gets his props:
"The first most important thing in the world is the date you move your body..[and not the car itself], it creates the initial weight transfer. Then, he speaks about turning...."So when we are coming up to a corner, I'll say, 'turn left.' We want to turn left, but we don't mean a turn of a certain size. We just mean a turn of the tiniest, tiniest amount. You can't even see it. This is the foundation of Wilson's obsession with maximizing a car's potential by managing weight transfer: Introduce a subtle, almost imperceptible amount of lock and then manipulate the car to the apex more assertively. He also often talks about a 'flat car.' The physics concept is obvious: the less steering angle, the greater the acceleration. To achieve this you begin each turn with that minuscule weight transfer then progressively steer to the apex. In the middle of the turn-where there is the least amount of penalty for tire scrub- quickly introduce a bit more lock than seems natural to shorten the corner and then actively straighten the car to the exit........It is about altering our values.....Traditionally you find the limit of adhesion and feel like your going fast on that geometrically perfect line. But you know what? Your not going forward that much. And that's bad, actually. I want you to be offended when you feel tire scrub."
He goes on to talk about shortening corners, braking lightly for a fraction of a second before really applying force to ensure the rears are responding before the nose dives and the rear raises up, trying to match wheel speed and car speed momentarily in the braking phase...how this all stresses the equipment less. " Shortening the corner reduces tire degradation." " So in the middle of the corner there's a bit more lock, a higher peak, but of the next 10 car lengths there's less load."
I have read the article a few times trying to digest this info. I have never given any thought to my movement inside the car. Looks like I need to at least be conscious of it, for starters. I understand the light (initial) brake application...possibly even the minuscule turn in ( begin to turn in early? heading into the corner?)....then, I'm not so sure.....forgive me, but I almost think about a "Scandinavian flick" type technique.......with the "finish" being a straighter line out of the corner for more acceleration????? I have been coached on "balance" (flat car??) but this new technique leaves me trying at a loss for understanding.
I know we have guys in here that drive all over the country. So, in order to keep it simple (for me), I would love to hear comments about, say WGI, turn 1 (plenty of room to turn in early? and plenty of room on the exit)...as a means of practicing.....for the West Coast guys, Laguna Seca, or Texas references are lost on me......but other can benefit, I truly hope. I am sure the skills transfer to any track, once you "get it".......would love some discussion to see if I can, actually understand how to "get it." In some ways this technique is contrary to what I have been taught, initial harder application of the brakes to get the weight on the nose. turn in, WAIT, then add in acceleration (in a very simplified sense).....
It would also seem to me that trail braking, for example, MAY introduce too much "radical" weight transfer, cause too much scrubbing of speed, before the car has acceleration added back in, moves toward a more neutral/balanced "flat car" orientation......
Perhaps, just some pre-New Years, ramblings, but I would love to try to better understand this line of thinking/technique.
Thnkx,
Scott
Anyone catch the article in February '18 Automobile mag, written by Jethro Bovingtdon, about Rob Wilson of New Zealand fame? I would consider this article to be a part of a series of "edumacation," informational "downloads," call it what you want, in an attempt to understand how to be a better driver. Last time it was "coasting", patience, etc. A concept that had been introduced to me via pro coaching, one that I continue to work on and on-line discussion was very interesting and helpful. This one however is a brand new concept (for me). I understand subtleties, minute movement, but this "technique" is different than what I have been taught. Rob Wilson has the chops, both as a successful racer and now a very successful coach, having worked (or continuing to work with) some pretty recognized drivers. He teaches his students on a Vauxhall Astra, a front wheel drive car. The following is quoted from the article so the author gets his props:
"The first most important thing in the world is the date you move your body..[and not the car itself], it creates the initial weight transfer. Then, he speaks about turning...."So when we are coming up to a corner, I'll say, 'turn left.' We want to turn left, but we don't mean a turn of a certain size. We just mean a turn of the tiniest, tiniest amount. You can't even see it. This is the foundation of Wilson's obsession with maximizing a car's potential by managing weight transfer: Introduce a subtle, almost imperceptible amount of lock and then manipulate the car to the apex more assertively. He also often talks about a 'flat car.' The physics concept is obvious: the less steering angle, the greater the acceleration. To achieve this you begin each turn with that minuscule weight transfer then progressively steer to the apex. In the middle of the turn-where there is the least amount of penalty for tire scrub- quickly introduce a bit more lock than seems natural to shorten the corner and then actively straighten the car to the exit........It is about altering our values.....Traditionally you find the limit of adhesion and feel like your going fast on that geometrically perfect line. But you know what? Your not going forward that much. And that's bad, actually. I want you to be offended when you feel tire scrub."
He goes on to talk about shortening corners, braking lightly for a fraction of a second before really applying force to ensure the rears are responding before the nose dives and the rear raises up, trying to match wheel speed and car speed momentarily in the braking phase...how this all stresses the equipment less. " Shortening the corner reduces tire degradation." " So in the middle of the corner there's a bit more lock, a higher peak, but of the next 10 car lengths there's less load."
I have read the article a few times trying to digest this info. I have never given any thought to my movement inside the car. Looks like I need to at least be conscious of it, for starters. I understand the light (initial) brake application...possibly even the minuscule turn in ( begin to turn in early? heading into the corner?)....then, I'm not so sure.....forgive me, but I almost think about a "Scandinavian flick" type technique.......with the "finish" being a straighter line out of the corner for more acceleration????? I have been coached on "balance" (flat car??) but this new technique leaves me trying at a loss for understanding.
I know we have guys in here that drive all over the country. So, in order to keep it simple (for me), I would love to hear comments about, say WGI, turn 1 (plenty of room to turn in early? and plenty of room on the exit)...as a means of practicing.....for the West Coast guys, Laguna Seca, or Texas references are lost on me......but other can benefit, I truly hope. I am sure the skills transfer to any track, once you "get it".......would love some discussion to see if I can, actually understand how to "get it." In some ways this technique is contrary to what I have been taught, initial harder application of the brakes to get the weight on the nose. turn in, WAIT, then add in acceleration (in a very simplified sense).....
It would also seem to me that trail braking, for example, MAY introduce too much "radical" weight transfer, cause too much scrubbing of speed, before the car has acceleration added back in, moves toward a more neutral/balanced "flat car" orientation......
Perhaps, just some pre-New Years, ramblings, but I would love to try to better understand this line of thinking/technique.
Thnkx,
Scott
12-31-2017, 04:58 PM
#2
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Rob is a GEM.
You can learn more from listening to his running commentary on deconstructing an F1 driver’s in-car video than you can from reading a hundred books (or at least I can
) A man who really “gets it.”
There’s plenty of information and other videos online (his schedule is pretty booked up and you need to go to him, at Bruntingthorpe), but it’s exceedingly important to understand his WHOLE approach.
He talks about “connecting” individual control inputs to make sinuous the transitions. His idea of “tipping in” the brakes is a quick, but exponential rise in brake pressure to maximum, without upsetting the car. It is NOT a “slow” or “soft” application of brakes, but instead breaks down into the smallest pieces, EVERY control input level the driver executes.
Rob will rarely talk about data, gSum, or other measures and focus mostly on kinesthetics, or how the car “feels” underneath your bottom, or to your fingertips. It lifts the mind to what is really important.
You can learn more from listening to his running commentary on deconstructing an F1 driver’s in-car video than you can from reading a hundred books (or at least I can
) A man who really “gets it.”There’s plenty of information and other videos online (his schedule is pretty booked up and you need to go to him, at Bruntingthorpe), but it’s exceedingly important to understand his WHOLE approach.
He talks about “connecting” individual control inputs to make sinuous the transitions. His idea of “tipping in” the brakes is a quick, but exponential rise in brake pressure to maximum, without upsetting the car. It is NOT a “slow” or “soft” application of brakes, but instead breaks down into the smallest pieces, EVERY control input level the driver executes.
Rob will rarely talk about data, gSum, or other measures and focus mostly on kinesthetics, or how the car “feels” underneath your bottom, or to your fingertips. It lifts the mind to what is really important.
The overriding consideration here is NOT to drive “by rote,” but instead clue-in to what the car is doing and to learn how to “converse with it” to get it to do what YOU want it to do. Hence, the Vauxhall as a training tool.
Happy New Year and good studies!
Happy New Year and good studies!
01-01-2018, 12:28 AM
#4
I'd probably be easily convinced that Rob Wilson has something useful to say. I wish he would just say it.
The quotes I have read in this thread and other thread that links to an article are nothing but gibberish. Words strung together that mean nothing.
"...and then manipulate the car to the apex more assertively".
This means literally nothing. There is no driving technique that this statement could not be used to describe. I can manipulate a car from the turn in point to the apex aggressively by pushing it sideways on a floor jack.
This isn't coaching, this is gibberish.
He is right about one thing: data does have major limitations, and those limitations lie in the area of slip angle vs grip, tire scrub, and understeer/oversteer balance based on very small weight transfers. Those don't appear to me to be instrumentable and I believe they are where excellence is demonstrated.
If these areas are ever going to be described in detail fine enough to be teachable, it will be done with data and not through talking about "carrying too much attitude on the car."
Chris Cervelli
Cervelli Technical Service
The quotes I have read in this thread and other thread that links to an article are nothing but gibberish. Words strung together that mean nothing.
"...and then manipulate the car to the apex more assertively".
This means literally nothing. There is no driving technique that this statement could not be used to describe. I can manipulate a car from the turn in point to the apex aggressively by pushing it sideways on a floor jack.
This isn't coaching, this is gibberish.
He is right about one thing: data does have major limitations, and those limitations lie in the area of slip angle vs grip, tire scrub, and understeer/oversteer balance based on very small weight transfers. Those don't appear to me to be instrumentable and I believe they are where excellence is demonstrated.
If these areas are ever going to be described in detail fine enough to be teachable, it will be done with data and not through talking about "carrying too much attitude on the car."
Chris Cervelli
Cervelli Technical Service
01-01-2018, 02:48 AM
#5
I wonder what can be learned from radically changing ones car trackside? Keeping everything the same except horseppwer from one session to the next really changes things. Experimenting with intake flat plate restrictors for different classes I can run 3200lbs 75mm stock throttlebody stock 370rwhp or another class 3200lbs 45mm restrictor killing horsepower. With less horsepower mu car is slower everywhere and unstable and nervous at turn in and mid corner. Car feels indroveable. With full power my car is comfortable and planted with higher speeds everywhere. Im thinking my car does not like to coast which is what no power feels like. But my car likes being stuck down on the road with throttle. I'm going to have to change my driving style to get the most out of less horsepower. I wonder if there is learning value from a driver development point of view to doing a power killing excercise with your car?
01-01-2018, 08:26 AM
#7
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Chris, you’re such a killjoy! 
No “BS” for you! 
For some, including several dozen F1 drivers that see value in Rob’s approach and his vocabulary used to explain it to them, it’s not gibberish.
Every driver requires some sort of key to unlock their minds to greater understanding.
No “BS” for you! For some, including several dozen F1 drivers that see value in Rob’s approach and his vocabulary used to explain it to them, it’s not gibberish.
Every driver requires some sort of key to unlock their minds to greater understanding.
Perhaps more fundamental understanding of the car’s dynamics (what it will naturally do, and when), an explanation of “provoking” desired change from behinds the wheel, thousands of things, any one can trigger putting the pieces all together so that drivers can go beyond their former comfort level.
Whether they come up with that key themselves, or working with someone (sometimes several) that can, this is what it takes for MOST drivers to have that “ah-HA” moment. One that allows them to go faster with less effort. And this keeps on happening throughout their career, both enthusiasts and pros.While there IS data logging capable of defining the most minuscule change and its effect on the car, a quicker way is video. THAT is why you can get better insight into what Rob believes is important (which can help most drivers) by LISTENING to his video critiques with folks like Peter Windsor. Check it out on YouTube.
Pho, you started out great, but then fell off the road. I think Rob would have liked your first series of bullet points, but “lock” is UK-speak for “steering angle.”
Whether they come up with that key themselves, or working with someone (sometimes several) that can, this is what it takes for MOST drivers to have that “ah-HA” moment. One that allows them to go faster with less effort. And this keeps on happening throughout their career, both enthusiasts and pros.While there IS data logging capable of defining the most minuscule change and its effect on the car, a quicker way is video. THAT is why you can get better insight into what Rob believes is important (which can help most drivers) by LISTENING to his video critiques with folks like Peter Windsor. Check it out on YouTube.
Pho, you started out great, but then fell off the road. I think Rob would have liked your first series of bullet points, but “lock” is UK-speak for “steering angle.”
Last edited by ProCoach; 01-01-2018 at 08:41 AM.
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01-03-2018, 03:12 PM
#10
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Yeah I thought about replacing lock with steering input, but it felt a bit constrained. Using terms for action(input,i.e. 'steering input') and result(load) allow for a more open understanding, since you can steer with both throttle and wheel, affect load multiple different inputs (brake, lift, steer, throttle, etc.
Also agree about it being easier to understand in person/video. I always like referencing Senna's NSX videos. The following subtle loads, which may look a little bit like 'flicks,' is the moment of weight transfer initiation for each corner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
At around :45, he does a very subtle initial load before asserting the car into the apex - you can see this happen at the same time he shifts.
Then at :55, you can see the initial load, followed by progressive loading of the car through the altering road surface, until you get a straight path to assert the momentum to the exit. The entire path of momentum planned and initiated with the subtle load.
At 1:09, the subtle load is executed during/with the trail brake, so that the momentum is manipulated properly at apex so he can assertively manage traction towards the exit.
1:14, very clear example of the subtle load - see how he uses a "double" turn-in.
1:27, gradual load, quick turn-in, then "coasting" multiple times in the corner - balancing throttle and steering input - keeping traction use at 100%.
1:50, you see the load, but this time he was a bit early/eager and had to correct himself out of it. The weight manipulation through that sequence of corners wasn't ideal.
Also agree about it being easier to understand in person/video. I always like referencing Senna's NSX videos. The following subtle loads, which may look a little bit like 'flicks,' is the moment of weight transfer initiation for each corner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUVkVB3SUf4
At around :45, he does a very subtle initial load before asserting the car into the apex - you can see this happen at the same time he shifts.
Then at :55, you can see the initial load, followed by progressive loading of the car through the altering road surface, until you get a straight path to assert the momentum to the exit. The entire path of momentum planned and initiated with the subtle load.
At 1:09, the subtle load is executed during/with the trail brake, so that the momentum is manipulated properly at apex so he can assertively manage traction towards the exit.
1:14, very clear example of the subtle load - see how he uses a "double" turn-in.
1:27, gradual load, quick turn-in, then "coasting" multiple times in the corner - balancing throttle and steering input - keeping traction use at 100%.
1:50, you see the load, but this time he was a bit early/eager and had to correct himself out of it. The weight manipulation through that sequence of corners wasn't ideal.
01-03-2018, 03:53 PM
#11
Senna is great, but his driving in this video as far as being the quickest possible, is not. all turns above that you list are mistakes . too fast, too long to get on the gas, too many corrections that put the tire well out of max grip/slip angles. At 1:27, for example. he is NOT at "100%" grip (we can call this 100%of the tires grip potential for sake of argument based on optimal slip angle for which he is NOT at) this is shown by entering the turn at too high of a speed, forcing a big PUSH under steer through the turn, and a misjudge of throttle which results in several , sliding, power-on corrections on the exit. if you are correcting, or pushing, by definition, you are NOT at maximum grip, period.
01-03-2018, 06:03 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
Giving Senna driving lessons?
Epic
Epic
01-03-2018, 06:47 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
If you look at this Senna lap just as far as fundamentals, you might be able see the obvious. Senna is not doing a correct driving/racing demonstration, he is doing a fun hot lap with lots of sliding around for the "show".
If you think correcting and delaying full throttle on exits is a fast way around the track, better do some research and test it with all the "data" you have access to.
Did you see Al Uncer drive laguna in the celebrity race? a great driver, not driving great by anyone's standard. It can happen, when they get old, or are not trying... in Senna's case, my bet, he was not trying.
If you do this long enough, you learn what the fastest way is around the track.........senna's demonstration is not designed to show this. but if you and Ricky Racer think it is...........Have fun with that, but dont expect to be fast.
Oh dear?
If you think correcting and delaying full throttle on exits is a fast way around the track, better do some research and test it with all the "data" you have access to.
Did you see Al Uncer drive laguna in the celebrity race? a great driver, not driving great by anyone's standard. It can happen, when they get old, or are not trying... in Senna's case, my bet, he was not trying.
If you do this long enough, you learn what the fastest way is around the track.........senna's demonstration is not designed to show this. but if you and Ricky Racer think it is...........Have fun with that, but dont expect to be fast.
Oh dear?
01-03-2018, 09:39 PM
#14
A curious fellow sent me a link here and asked me to post my thoughts on Rob Wilson. I haven’t read those articles, but I’ve read a few things he said in the past. As mentioned earlier in the thread, Rob is fairly vague with his publicly given advice. It could be that he is just being cagey as he has a good thing going with the Formula 1 crowd so it wouldn’t make much sense for him to spill all his methods. My guess though, is that he understands what it feels like to go fast and has figured out good ways to teach that to people in person, but he doesn’t really understand the physics so has trouble being specific in writing.
Unfortunately, due to his notoriety, eager drivers then go around trying to figure out what he means by terms such as “shortening a corner” or a having a “flat car.” These are probably correct concepts, I’m just not exactly sure what he’s trying to say. I do remember reading him talk about having a “flat spot” in the middle of a chicane and he made it clear he meant there should be a momentary steering pause. This actually is correct, but it’s one of those things that is evidence of a good result, not a technique to try to follow. In other words, if you did a chicane perfectly, there would be a pause, but you shouldn’t just do a pause anyway if your current situation doesn’t call for it.
I do think his use of a front wheel drive car and a stop watch is a pretty good clue that his in person coaching is on point though. A front wheel drive car at slow enough speeds to allow wheelspin is the perfect vehicle to teach someone what “fast” feels like. Knowing what “fast” feels like is the most important skill for a driver. By “fast” I mean knowing how quickly you just moved through a corner. The front drive car is special in that it provides you no clues other than your overall sense of place and speed throughout the corner.
Unfortunately, due to his notoriety, eager drivers then go around trying to figure out what he means by terms such as “shortening a corner” or a having a “flat car.” These are probably correct concepts, I’m just not exactly sure what he’s trying to say. I do remember reading him talk about having a “flat spot” in the middle of a chicane and he made it clear he meant there should be a momentary steering pause. This actually is correct, but it’s one of those things that is evidence of a good result, not a technique to try to follow. In other words, if you did a chicane perfectly, there would be a pause, but you shouldn’t just do a pause anyway if your current situation doesn’t call for it.
I do think his use of a front wheel drive car and a stop watch is a pretty good clue that his in person coaching is on point though. A front wheel drive car at slow enough speeds to allow wheelspin is the perfect vehicle to teach someone what “fast” feels like. Knowing what “fast” feels like is the most important skill for a driver. By “fast” I mean knowing how quickly you just moved through a corner. The front drive car is special in that it provides you no clues other than your overall sense of place and speed throughout the corner.
01-03-2018, 11:29 PM
#15
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