Coasting- seriously, for real?
12-04-2017, 12:34 PM
#46
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Then, this would mean, "neutral throttle". as the quote said, not accelerating nor decelerating. personally, i think the term is a little misleading, as it could mean, off throttle, out of gear and "coasting" etc.
12-04-2017, 12:52 PM
#47
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Roll into the turn is passive.
John Walko taught me the concept of rolling SPEED into the turn.
That, I can guarantee you, is active on the part of the driver!
This fits perfectly into HOW Ive observed many young prodigies and seasoned pros work. They release the brakes and enter a LITTLE hotter than they think they ought to be, then figure it out and make the appropriate adjustments. They have confidence knowing that they a) can sense how much is too much and b) how to fix it so they get out unscathed.
John Walko taught me the concept of rolling SPEED into the turn.
That, I can guarantee you, is active on the part of the driver!
This fits perfectly into HOW Ive observed many young prodigies and seasoned pros work. They release the brakes and enter a LITTLE hotter than they think they ought to be, then figure it out and make the appropriate adjustments. They have confidence knowing that they a) can sense how much is too much and b) how to fix it so they get out unscathed.
As one of my coaches, pro Indy Car driver Dan Clarke said so concisely:
1. The car rotates MUCH faster when you hesitate mid corner (aka breathe the throttle ) before adding throttle input
2. Modulating doesn t just mean ADDING throttle input, it also means *withholding* throttle input. As some said nicely earlier: a neutral pedal state is part of the modulation spectrum.
3. If you need to ADD/insert throttle input BEFORE apex it means you over-slowed at turn entry. Eat humble pie and move on.
Awareness of these points has changed my conceptualization of entry speeds and enhanced the cognizance of my personal butt-o-meter. And, let s be honest: any experienced driver can tell the difference between a quick rotation or a laborious and painfully slow arc.
.
1. The car rotates MUCH faster when you hesitate mid corner (aka breathe the throttle ) before adding throttle input
2. Modulating doesn t just mean ADDING throttle input, it also means *withholding* throttle input. As some said nicely earlier: a neutral pedal state is part of the modulation spectrum.
3. If you need to ADD/insert throttle input BEFORE apex it means you over-slowed at turn entry. Eat humble pie and move on.
Awareness of these points has changed my conceptualization of entry speeds and enhanced the cognizance of my personal butt-o-meter. And, let s be honest: any experienced driver can tell the difference between a quick rotation or a laborious and painfully slow arc.
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where throttle was part of the rotation speed equation. again, depending on the car and set up and a skilled foot, an optimal amount of weight transfer can be applied to the rear to increase the rotation rate, but not fall off the friction circle. (for most turns, because technically, the slowest part of the turn is near apex, everything after or before ) can have a accel or decel component to it.#2 i agree with
#3 I also agree with. again, depending on the car and set up and a skilled foot, an optimal amonunt of weight transfer can be applied to the rear to increase the rotation rate, but not fall off the friction circle. (for most turns, because technically, the slowest part of the turn is near apex, everything after or before ) can have a accel or decel component to it.
12-05-2017, 10:18 AM
#49
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Momentum cars require significantly more time off pedals (aka coasting) between turn in and apex than high HP cars, as long as you carry the proper entry speed (lots and lots!).
Easy example: T6 at Road Atlanta is very much a “coast in” corner as the banking increases from turn in to apex and the corner leads directly into another corner. So much time to be gained there rolling speed in and keeping weight on the nose (ie not on throttle) so the car will turn and still be able to take advantage of the added grip mid corner.
Easy example: T6 at Road Atlanta is very much a “coast in” corner as the banking increases from turn in to apex and the corner leads directly into another corner. So much time to be gained there rolling speed in and keeping weight on the nose (ie not on throttle) so the car will turn and still be able to take advantage of the added grip mid corner.
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12-06-2017, 03:16 AM
#50
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Just watch some oval racing if you want to see this technique in action
https://youtu.be/u8ikj2vtH1s
https://youtu.be/u8ikj2vtH1s
12-06-2017, 12:42 PM
#51
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Yes, and while it's a bad feeling when you realize you left a little room on exit, it's a much worse feeling when when you realize you went to gass too soon.
12-06-2017, 02:42 PM
#52
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Momentum cars require significantly more time off pedals (aka coasting) between turn in and apex than high HP cars, as long as you carry the proper entry speed (lots and lots!).
Easy example: T6 at Road Atlanta is very much a coast in corner as the banking increases from turn in to apex and the corner leads directly into another corner. So much time to be gained there rolling speed in and keeping weight on the nose (ie not on throttle) so the car will turn and still be able to take advantage of the added grip mid corner.
Easy example: T6 at Road Atlanta is very much a coast in corner as the banking increases from turn in to apex and the corner leads directly into another corner. So much time to be gained there rolling speed in and keeping weight on the nose (ie not on throttle) so the car will turn and still be able to take advantage of the added grip mid corner.
i would suggest just the opposite, the higher HP cars generally are heavier, but in the end, i think all cars are coasting from turn in to apex and i would further suggest that the lower HP cars can go to throttle earlier, due to the scrubbing speed forces during a turn, allowing the lower HP car to start applying throttle earlier.
if you look at the throttle pedal times vs high hp cars, it is significantly higher time wise and % of lap time, than high HP cars.
12-06-2017, 02:58 PM
#53
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I don't believe the data supports you. I just looked at some data I have from Watkins Glen with all very good drivers (2 champions included). Average throttle position not including zeros (only open throttle) 800 HP 55.69%, 500 HP 64.94%, 350 HP 67.74%, 200 HP 59%. I don't have the time to look at percent of lap right now.
12-06-2017, 06:09 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by jdistefa
I coast 60% of the time... every time.
12-06-2017, 07:20 PM
#56
Originally Posted by Matt Romanowski
I don't believe the data supports you. I just looked at some data I have from Watkins Glen with all very good drivers (2 champions included). Average throttle position not including zeros (only open throttle) 800 HP 55.69%, 500 HP 64.94%, 350 HP 67.74%, 200 HP 59%. I don't have the time to look at percent of lap right now.
12-06-2017, 07:43 PM
#57
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even maintenance throttle too early will cause less front grip, especially in a 911. Some front engine cars can get away with very little pause, but if you are using all of the grip for turning, there is a moment where there is none left for throttle. As worded to me by Andrew Davis
12-06-2017, 07:49 PM
#58
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Why do you think that? If the lower power car is driven properly, the percentage WOT (I use 85% and above, a MoTeC measure) will be similar to big cars.
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12-06-2017, 08:05 PM
#60
Unless a driver is trail braking, generally in a high HP car, s/he is off throttle temporarily right after turn in. How quickly a driver gets back on the throttle before the apex is a function of various factors. That gap/period should not be defined as coasting as it is near impractical to transition from braking to throttle, in a high HP CAR, immediately after turn in. To me there are two areas that qualify (and it's fair) to be defined as coasting...if you are off throttle (1) in the braking zone BEFORE the turn in point and (2) AFTER the apex on corner exit. There are legitimate reasons why a driver would coast in both of those areas however in either case, the driver would lose time on his/her lap. Being off the throttle AFTER the turn in point but BEFORE the apex is tough to call coasting (frankly more advanced drivers are trail braking in this zone/part of the turn and not transitioning to the throttle).