Better late than never point-by
10-05-2017, 08:38 PM
#76
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In my 11 years of doing DE's with PCA in ALL run-group levels I have never driven in a session where point-bys were not mandatory. In all meetings, with all PCA regions, and at all levels "open passing" meant that passing is allowed anywhere on the track (with point-bys still being mandatory) -- this includes sessions where >90% of the drivers were also racers.
Yes, mandatory point-bys may sometimes slow someone down and ruin their hot-lap but that's the "price" everyone in PCA DE events has accepted to "pay" in return for the vastly improved odds for avoiding contact.
Yes, mandatory point-bys may sometimes slow someone down and ruin their hot-lap but that's the "price" everyone in PCA DE events has accepted to "pay" in return for the vastly improved odds for avoiding contact.
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10-06-2017, 01:24 AM
#78
10-06-2017, 09:09 AM
#79
Not PCA
This was not a PCA event. This was Chin Track Days at Road Atlanta, just days before the start of Petit Le Mans. The Red Run Group was loaded with prototype racers. Organizers will argue that this was a one-off event, but, in fact, Chin has been allowing more and more pro race groups to use its events for test and tune. I have always enjoyed Chin (and I instruct for them), but IMHO, this is a recipe for disaster and a ticking time-bomb.
10-06-2017, 09:38 AM
#80
Racer
did you talk to marc about this ?
surprised he would let something like that slip
he did mention that the "Pros" were the cause of most of the black flags on saturday
surprised he would let something like that slip
he did mention that the "Pros" were the cause of most of the black flags on saturday
10-06-2017, 09:42 AM
#81
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After 25 years I'm seeing stuff I never thought I would at DE events.
10-06-2017, 09:54 AM
#82
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This was not a PCA event. This was Chin Track Days at Road Atlanta, just days before the start of Petit Le Mans. The Red Run Group was loaded with prototype racers. Organizers will argue that this was a one-off event, but, in fact, Chin has been allowing more and more pro race groups to use its events for test and tune. I have always enjoyed Chin (and I instruct for them), but IMHO, this is a recipe for disaster and a ticking time-bomb.
10-06-2017, 10:05 AM
#83
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I have attended PCA DE events where pro racers were also in attendance. They had a special run group where they could run without other drivers on track. I believe we paid a lower fee since their participation helped cover some costs for the event. We lost some run time but almost everyone was on the fence watching the pros practice. I thought it was a good trade off.
10-06-2017, 10:10 AM
#84
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There have been pro teams at every WGI Chin event I've ever attended. It's a huge attraction amongst the lower run group drivers for sure. It is also the primary source of black flags and people being passed by surprise without point bys. At the May event I think an Indy Lights car caused a black flag in every red session on day 1.
10-06-2017, 10:28 AM
#85
Leave us not forget that Chin Track Days is a business, and Mark Hicks, as general manager, can be forgiven for trying to turn a profit on one of the most desirable weekends on the Road Atlanta schedule. Yes, I spoke with management and showed them the video. They promised to address the problem with that specific driver. But Hicks allowed that this is a trend (pro teams using the Red Run Group for Test & Tune) that is NOT going away.
10-06-2017, 10:30 AM
#86
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Originally Posted by ohenryinatlanta
did you talk to marc about this ?
surprised he would let something like that slip
he did mention that the "Pros" were the cause of most of the black flags on saturday
surprised he would let something like that slip
he did mention that the "Pros" were the cause of most of the black flags on saturday
He is a great guy and he and Maria run a top tier event
10-06-2017, 10:51 AM
#87
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I understand the fascination and interest in “pros,” but I also know that they put their suits on the same way everyone else does, meaning both that they were “ams” once and also that they are fallible (and variable in their performance and judgment) like everyone else.
When Mark started Chin’s relationship with “pro” teams, it was good for both. I think of one of the first events at VIR, where a number of Conti (then, Koni?) teams, including my friends at BimmerWorld, used the event as a test and tune for the upcoming Grand Am Race, at that venue. Sebring was a popular venue, too. But it mostly had to do with Chin having a date close to the pro event these teams wanted to get seat time for their drivers for.
In the beginning, ST and even GS cars integrated well into the faster, regular crew at Chin. The size, weight, speed and mostly the drivers mindset meshed well with the mission and vision of Chin. The teams were, by and large, respectful of the passing protocols and, if they were on a hot lap, nearly ALWAYS bailed and chose the latter when confronted with the choice to pass in a dicey place against the direction of the overtaken car (like the DP-02 did on PLNewman) or not, respecting Chin’s established protocols (like the OP did).
In exchange, many of the teams began running Chin vinyl and a good relationship was nurtured. A few “bad apples” were excused, but not before there was a lot of gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands (I think of a Mustang team, and later a pair of McLarens that “just didn’t get it.”) By and large and for a good long time, it worked.
Maybe now, not so much. The increasing delta in lap times, car type and most of all, driver and team objectives between longtime “Track Day” members and pro teams is presenting issues unforeseen not only for Chin, but other justifiably well regarded programs, like DMTD and others.
There are hundreds of pro teams looking for any opportunity to get on track, but there are hundreds of thousands of Track Day drivers and enthusiasts whose goals are to remain safe, get better and pursue high quality, non-competitive track time, very different from turning “race laps” and accumulating tire degradation and fuel use data at speed.
I do hope the organizers sort this out, because it’s getting worse, not better. Perhaps more run groups and less time for each would be better? I don’t know, but it deserves to be talked about.
When Mark started Chin’s relationship with “pro” teams, it was good for both. I think of one of the first events at VIR, where a number of Conti (then, Koni?) teams, including my friends at BimmerWorld, used the event as a test and tune for the upcoming Grand Am Race, at that venue. Sebring was a popular venue, too. But it mostly had to do with Chin having a date close to the pro event these teams wanted to get seat time for their drivers for.
In the beginning, ST and even GS cars integrated well into the faster, regular crew at Chin. The size, weight, speed and mostly the drivers mindset meshed well with the mission and vision of Chin. The teams were, by and large, respectful of the passing protocols and, if they were on a hot lap, nearly ALWAYS bailed and chose the latter when confronted with the choice to pass in a dicey place against the direction of the overtaken car (like the DP-02 did on PLNewman) or not, respecting Chin’s established protocols (like the OP did).
In exchange, many of the teams began running Chin vinyl and a good relationship was nurtured. A few “bad apples” were excused, but not before there was a lot of gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands (I think of a Mustang team, and later a pair of McLarens that “just didn’t get it.”) By and large and for a good long time, it worked.
Maybe now, not so much. The increasing delta in lap times, car type and most of all, driver and team objectives between longtime “Track Day” members and pro teams is presenting issues unforeseen not only for Chin, but other justifiably well regarded programs, like DMTD and others.
There are hundreds of pro teams looking for any opportunity to get on track, but there are hundreds of thousands of Track Day drivers and enthusiasts whose goals are to remain safe, get better and pursue high quality, non-competitive track time, very different from turning “race laps” and accumulating tire degradation and fuel use data at speed.
I do hope the organizers sort this out, because it’s getting worse, not better. Perhaps more run groups and less time for each would be better? I don’t know, but it deserves to be talked about.
10-06-2017, 11:24 AM
#88
How weird. I know how this situation could morph from some friendly pros joining in and and arrival at where they are today but it just seems funny on 2 counts from this amateur racer's perspective. First if this red group needs point-by then they aren't ready for even open passing simulated race environment yet pro racers are on course testing and tuning mixing with inexperienced drivers. Strange but OK if the pros are operating at a heightened level but doesn't that just ruin their test and tune with all the moving chicanes on track? Second, why can't pros buy the track just like any organizer does and test and tune in private without the prying eyes of other pros? BRP and WSIR my home tracks rent for under $5k/day and have designated test and tune days for couple hundred and those tracks are empty. I know a former pro who tests tires for a major company. They can't test with bogged laps. They rent the tracks out all over the country and test privately. I know a crew chief who dinks around all day head faking the competition. At night when everyone leaves the paddock is when his real work begins. They are a winning team. When Stoptech designed the SCCA T1 brake kit on my car they rented the track on a weekday. It was like $3000. I just don't see a lot of value if I'm in a LMP car coming up on spec miatas waiting for a point by all day. I'd be hoping for a mechanical so my team can work on the car and I wouldn't have to be in it.
10-06-2017, 12:18 PM
#89
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How weird. I know how this situation could morph from some friendly pros joining in and and arrival at where they are today but it just seems funny on 2 counts from this amateur racer's perspective. First if this red group needs point-by then they aren't ready for even open passing simulated race environment yet pro racers are on course testing and tuning mixing with inexperienced drivers. Strange but OK if the pros are operating at a heightened level but doesn't that just ruin their test and tune with all the moving chicanes on track? Second, why can't pros buy the track just like any organizer does and test and tune in private without the prying eyes of other pros? BRP and WSIR my home tracks rent for under $5k/day and have designated test and tune days for couple hundred and those tracks are empty. I know a former pro who tests tires for a major company. They can't test with bogged laps. They rent the tracks out all over the country and test privately. I know a crew chief who dinks around all day head faking the competition. At night when everyone leaves the paddock is when his real work begins. They are a winning team. When Stoptech designed the SCCA T1 brake kit on my car they rented the track on a weekday. It was like $3000. I just don't see a lot of value if I'm in a LMP car coming up on spec miatas waiting for a point by all day. I'd be hoping for a mechanical so my team can work on the car and I wouldn't have to be in it.
The other thing is the massive difference between a track day driver's vision of a "simulated race environment" and that of any driver that has raced in a more than entry level pro series. Sort of like "simulated automatic fire," a race environment is a race environment. I have to make dozens of split second decisions every lap when running a purpose-built race car among drivers that debate whether or not to run R-comp tires or not... Not particularly fun.
As a pro driver with the objective of gathering useful information, I would "set the car on a trajectory," straddling that limit, and end up like that DP-02 who DIDN'T leave margin to change that trajectory, and COULDN'T change that trajectory, thus ending up on the outside of PLNewman under the bridge. I shudder to think what might have happened had PLNewman drifted left to make room AFTER the DP-02 driver was committed...
I don't have a problem with track day operators allowing in pro teams and drivers to their events, just separate the groups according to objective and relative car/driver speed. Don't give "the talk" to drivers and then turn a blind eye to violations. ALWAYS bias the culture, attitude and behavior towards the casual track day drivers, IF you're committed to preserving the safety of those track day drivers. There are promoter test days for pros at every major venue...
I have been to "track day events" where $250K cars have been written off precisely because of these kind of misunderstandings (big GT car drivers not waiting for a point...). It's a VERY BAD day when that happens... And there's NO excuse for it. NONE.
10-06-2017, 12:36 PM
#90
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Here's a blue group at Chin WGI excerpt. It's exacerbated by the failure of the car I'm passing to lift but my focus at this moment is on getting past the car in front of me, not the car behind me. When it passes me I'm not expecting it and... well, I'm happy to be a DE guy and I'm not interested in these shenanigans.