View Poll Results: Which passing rules are better?
Current
59
85.51%
Proposed
10
14.49%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll
PCA passing rules
#196
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Thread Starter
Can someone who understands the PCA rules please answer this simple question: Which of the two scenarios were the rules meant to enforce: a or b?
Car A is starting a pass on Car B on the straight and on the inside ahead of the next turn. The overlap between the cars is increasing. At turn-in, the passed Car B is still ahead of A by 1/4 car-length.
a. Car B goes for the apex, forcing Car A to hit the brakes and line up behind Car B. ("The car ahead at turn in has the corner...")
OR
b. Car B leaves racing room for Car A and both cars go through the turn side by side. ("...but doesn't own the corner. Everyone must leave racing room.")
Thx.
Car A is starting a pass on Car B on the straight and on the inside ahead of the next turn. The overlap between the cars is increasing. At turn-in, the passed Car B is still ahead of A by 1/4 car-length.
a. Car B goes for the apex, forcing Car A to hit the brakes and line up behind Car B. ("The car ahead at turn in has the corner...")
OR
b. Car B leaves racing room for Car A and both cars go through the turn side by side. ("...but doesn't own the corner. Everyone must leave racing room.")
Thx.
#197
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You’re really missing the point, aren’t you?
In scenario a), the overlap is not complete, nor IS THE OVERTAKING CAR AHEAD. The overtaking car is making a number of assumptions, including the idea that by its very presence and the “growing, but not complete, overlap” will make it self-evident that the overtaken car WILL YIELD or otherwise give way.
The overtaking car is the ONLY car that has full view of BOTH cars, conferring upon it a more informed, complete and RESPONSIBLE view of what is going on. The overtaking car makes the decision to pass or not to pass, based on that more complete information.
In scenario b), there is no such assumption, because both drivers are (and have been) aware of the proximity of the other, know and like each other, respect EACH OTHER’S RIGHT TO EXIST and most importantly realize that the passing car’s position at corner entry is NOT a STATIC exercise. Ideally, this is what happens between friendly and respectful competitors.
Unfortunately, in scenario a), an ASSUMPTION by the overtaking car leads to several BAD decisions by the driver and at EVERY “go/no-go” moment that could prevent potential contact, the overtaking driver presses on. With predictible results, FAR too common in PCA Club Racing.
13/13 is a deterrent. Without it, people THINK less than they already do...
In scenario a), the overlap is not complete, nor IS THE OVERTAKING CAR AHEAD. The overtaking car is making a number of assumptions, including the idea that by its very presence and the “growing, but not complete, overlap” will make it self-evident that the overtaken car WILL YIELD or otherwise give way.
The overtaking car is the ONLY car that has full view of BOTH cars, conferring upon it a more informed, complete and RESPONSIBLE view of what is going on. The overtaking car makes the decision to pass or not to pass, based on that more complete information.
In scenario b), there is no such assumption, because both drivers are (and have been) aware of the proximity of the other, know and like each other, respect EACH OTHER’S RIGHT TO EXIST and most importantly realize that the passing car’s position at corner entry is NOT a STATIC exercise. Ideally, this is what happens between friendly and respectful competitors.
Unfortunately, in scenario a), an ASSUMPTION by the overtaking car leads to several BAD decisions by the driver and at EVERY “go/no-go” moment that could prevent potential contact, the overtaking driver presses on. With predictible results, FAR too common in PCA Club Racing.
13/13 is a deterrent. Without it, people THINK less than they already do...
#198
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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As long as we're going to use quotes...
"In all societies where men compete with one another - and in which societies, pray, do they not? - there must be laws to regulate that competition. The extent to which that competition is carried, whether by intensity or sophistication, determines the degree of complexity of the necessary laws; and the extent to which those laws are willingly accepted determines, no less, the degree of civilization of that society."
Translated from Thales of Miletus, c 600 BC.
"In all societies where men compete with one another - and in which societies, pray, do they not? - there must be laws to regulate that competition. The extent to which that competition is carried, whether by intensity or sophistication, determines the degree of complexity of the necessary laws; and the extent to which those laws are willingly accepted determines, no less, the degree of civilization of that society."
Translated from Thales of Miletus, c 600 BC.
In more recent times you have to choose whether you want to be known as a Max Verstappen or a Danny Ricciardo.
#199
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Thread Starter
You’re really missing the point, aren’t you?
In scenario a), the overlap is not complete, nor IS THE OVERTAKING CAR AHEAD. The overtaking car is making a number of assumptions, including the idea that by its very presence and the “growing, but not complete, overlap” will make it self-evident that the overtaken car WILL YIELD or otherwise give way.
The overtaking car is the ONLY car that has full view of BOTH cars, conferring upon it a more informed, complete and RESPONSIBLE view of what is going on. The overtaking car makes the decision to pass or not to pass, based on that more complete information.
In scenario b), there is no such assumption, because both drivers are (and have been) aware of the proximity of the other, know and like each other, respect EACH OTHER’S RIGHT TO EXIST and most importantly realize that the passing car’s position at corner entry is NOT a STATIC exercise. Ideally, this is what happens between friendly and respectful competitors.
Unfortunately, in scenario a), an ASSUMPTION by the overtaking car leads to several BAD decisions by the driver and at EVERY “go/no-go” moment that could prevent potential contact, the overtaking driver presses on. With predictible results, FAR too common in PCA Club Racing.
13/13 is a deterrent. Without it, people THINK less than they already do...
In scenario a), the overlap is not complete, nor IS THE OVERTAKING CAR AHEAD. The overtaking car is making a number of assumptions, including the idea that by its very presence and the “growing, but not complete, overlap” will make it self-evident that the overtaken car WILL YIELD or otherwise give way.
The overtaking car is the ONLY car that has full view of BOTH cars, conferring upon it a more informed, complete and RESPONSIBLE view of what is going on. The overtaking car makes the decision to pass or not to pass, based on that more complete information.
In scenario b), there is no such assumption, because both drivers are (and have been) aware of the proximity of the other, know and like each other, respect EACH OTHER’S RIGHT TO EXIST and most importantly realize that the passing car’s position at corner entry is NOT a STATIC exercise. Ideally, this is what happens between friendly and respectful competitors.
Unfortunately, in scenario a), an ASSUMPTION by the overtaking car leads to several BAD decisions by the driver and at EVERY “go/no-go” moment that could prevent potential contact, the overtaking driver presses on. With predictible results, FAR too common in PCA Club Racing.
13/13 is a deterrent. Without it, people THINK less than they already do...
#200
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#201
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If you wish for b) and if you want to make it a reality (instead of a) wouldn’t it be better to just clearly say so and not confuse people with a) ?
Appreciate your answers.
#202
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Thx. In your opinion, is it OK when two contradicting scenarios are expected and enforced by the same set of rules?
If you wish for b) and if you want to make it a reality (instead of a) wouldn’t it be better to just clearly say so and not confuse people with a) ?
Appreciate your answers.
The seemingly variable assignment of responsibility in contact incidents, plus the introduction of the “rub out” does introduce confusion.
I wrote a cover article in Grassroots Motorsports magazine twenty years ago September about this exact issue and how inconsistency in identifying and “calling” enforceable incidents, variable assignment of responsibility and specifically variations in penalties erode competitor’s mindfulness, as well as proper and desirable decision-making, when confronted with the inevitable question; “do they SEE me?”
It’s a very tough job to adjudicate these issues. Having done so (and contributed to numerous examinations of incident forensics) for many years, so much more “behavior modification” can be accomplished when the penalty matches the expectation, but in an effort to simplify, sometimes the add-on language adds confusion.
That said, I’m not certain that they are two conflicting scenarios. The first one is pretty clear, the second one kicks in only when people go beyond the first one.
No simple answer and will have to think more about your query. It’s a good one.
#203
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Thread Starter
IMO, they are as conflicting as they can be. Here's why:
At what point does the passing Car A determine whether scenario a) or scenario b) is about to play out? If it assumes scenario b) while passed Car B assumes scenario a) and a contact occurs, whose fault would that be? Both cars intended to play out scenarios allowed by the rules. The passed Car B thinks it "has the corner" and goes for the apex (scenario a) but at the same time the passing Car A expects that the passed car "doesn't own the corner and that everyone must leave racing room" (scenario b).
If the passing Car A would be judged to be at fault for such a contact, wouldn't this imply that all passing cars should expect and drive by scenario a), just to be safe -- in which case scenario a) becomes the one that is de facto expected and enforced by the rules? If so, what's the point of having the conflicting scenario b) in the rules ("...does not own the corner. Everyone must leave racing room.")?
On the other hand, if the passed Car B would be judged to be at fault for the contact, wouldn't this imply that all passing cars should reasonably expect and drive by scenario b), in which case scenario b) becomes the one that is de facto expected and enforced by the rules? If so, what's the point of having the conflicting scenario a) in the rules ("The car ahead at turn in has the corner...")?
No simple answer and will have to think more about your query. It’s a good one.
Last edited by hf1; 04-16-2018 at 12:33 PM.
#204
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Can I make an attempt at a summation here?
Most people, after taking part in a few race weekends, know what to do in a corner. The people that don't figure it out, or worse yet, don't care, get weeded out through the 13/13 process.
Again, I don't think we need pages and pages of debate about overlapping bumpers, and how much is an overlap, because for the most part it is always going to be subjective to each of the drivers. Video helps to make it objective but it never shows the complete picture nor all the angles. For the most part we all know what is appropriate versus inappropriate and most incidences are the result of a mistake rather than someone thinking they had the right to be there and just stuck with it.
I have backed out plenty of times where I was certain it was my corner but did not want to have an incident. The other driver has almost always responded to the situation with "I honestly didn't even realize you were there."
So all this debate really doesn't really address that the majority of time it is a mistake which causes an incident and not someone interpreting the rules as they dive into a corner. That's my opinion - others my disagree.
The bottom line is how you drive forms your reputation and whether someone will trust you in the corner or not. How do you want to be known?
Most people, after taking part in a few race weekends, know what to do in a corner. The people that don't figure it out, or worse yet, don't care, get weeded out through the 13/13 process.
Again, I don't think we need pages and pages of debate about overlapping bumpers, and how much is an overlap, because for the most part it is always going to be subjective to each of the drivers. Video helps to make it objective but it never shows the complete picture nor all the angles. For the most part we all know what is appropriate versus inappropriate and most incidences are the result of a mistake rather than someone thinking they had the right to be there and just stuck with it.
I have backed out plenty of times where I was certain it was my corner but did not want to have an incident. The other driver has almost always responded to the situation with "I honestly didn't even realize you were there."
So all this debate really doesn't really address that the majority of time it is a mistake which causes an incident and not someone interpreting the rules as they dive into a corner. That's my opinion - others my disagree.
The bottom line is how you drive forms your reputation and whether someone will trust you in the corner or not. How do you want to be known?
#205
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Can I make an attempt at a summation here?
Most people, after taking part in a few race weekends, know what to do in a corner. The people that don't figure it out, or worse yet, don't care, get weeded out through the 13/13 process.
Again, I don't think we need pages and pages of debate about overlapping bumpers, and how much is an overlap, because for the most part it is always going to be subjective to each of the drivers. Video helps to make it objective but it never shows the complete picture nor all the angles. For the most part we all know what is appropriate versus inappropriate and most incidences are the result of a mistake rather than someone thinking they had the right to be there and just stuck with it.
I have backed out plenty of times where I was certain it was my corner but did not want to have an incident. The other driver has almost always responded to the situation with "I honestly didn't even realize you were there."
So all this debate really doesn't really address that the majority of time it is a mistake which causes an incident and not someone interpreting the rules as they dive into a corner. That's my opinion - others my disagree.
The bottom line is how you drive forms your reputation and whether someone will trust you in the corner or not. How do you want to be known?
Most people, after taking part in a few race weekends, know what to do in a corner. The people that don't figure it out, or worse yet, don't care, get weeded out through the 13/13 process.
Again, I don't think we need pages and pages of debate about overlapping bumpers, and how much is an overlap, because for the most part it is always going to be subjective to each of the drivers. Video helps to make it objective but it never shows the complete picture nor all the angles. For the most part we all know what is appropriate versus inappropriate and most incidences are the result of a mistake rather than someone thinking they had the right to be there and just stuck with it.
I have backed out plenty of times where I was certain it was my corner but did not want to have an incident. The other driver has almost always responded to the situation with "I honestly didn't even realize you were there."
So all this debate really doesn't really address that the majority of time it is a mistake which causes an incident and not someone interpreting the rules as they dive into a corner. That's my opinion - others my disagree.
The bottom line is how you drive forms your reputation and whether someone will trust you in the corner or not. How do you want to be known?
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
#206
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Can I make an attempt at a summation here?
Most people, after taking part in a few race weekends, know what to do in a corner. The people that don't figure it out, or worse yet, don't care, get weeded out through the 13/13 process.
Again, I don't think we need pages and pages of debate about overlapping bumpers, and how much is an overlap, because for the most part it is always going to be subjective to each of the drivers. Video helps to make it objective but it never shows the complete picture nor all the angles. For the most part we all know what is appropriate versus inappropriate and most incidences are the result of a mistake rather than someone thinking they had the right to be there and just stuck with it.
I have backed out plenty of times where I was certain it was my corner but did not want to have an incident. The other driver has almost always responded to the situation with "I honestly didn't even realize you were there."
So all this debate really doesn't really address that the majority of time it is a mistake which causes an incident and not someone interpreting the rules as they dive into a corner. That's my opinion - others my disagree.
The bottom line is how you drive forms your reputation and whether someone will trust you in the corner or not. How do you want to be known?
Most people, after taking part in a few race weekends, know what to do in a corner. The people that don't figure it out, or worse yet, don't care, get weeded out through the 13/13 process.
Again, I don't think we need pages and pages of debate about overlapping bumpers, and how much is an overlap, because for the most part it is always going to be subjective to each of the drivers. Video helps to make it objective but it never shows the complete picture nor all the angles. For the most part we all know what is appropriate versus inappropriate and most incidences are the result of a mistake rather than someone thinking they had the right to be there and just stuck with it.
I have backed out plenty of times where I was certain it was my corner but did not want to have an incident. The other driver has almost always responded to the situation with "I honestly didn't even realize you were there."
So all this debate really doesn't really address that the majority of time it is a mistake which causes an incident and not someone interpreting the rules as they dive into a corner. That's my opinion - others my disagree.
The bottom line is how you drive forms your reputation and whether someone will trust you in the corner or not. How do you want to be known?
#207
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Appreciate your input. If you don't think that these questions are relevant or even needed you are obviously free to disregard them. Please allow for the possibility that others may differ and would like to continue their discussion. I find plenty of discussions on RL that are useless and irrelevant to me, yet I don't deem it to be my duty to interrupt them or to make them stop.
My "summation" remark was in jest as I don't think God himself, never mind me, could stop this thread from rolling forward!
#208
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#209
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I'd appreciate a more direct answer from a respected club racer such as yourself about the question I posed about Scenario a) vs Scenario b) above. "Drivers must 'get it', and not hit each other" is not a rule, unfortunately. I too wish it was that simple. I'm sure you too, as a lawyer, understand the significance that rules have in guiding competition and resolving conflicting claims to a scarce resource (track/racing space, in this case).
My "summation" remark was in jest as I don't think God himself, never mind me, could stop this thread from rolling forward!
#210
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I agree and I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but the implication that the drivers who question the clarity and the consistent enforcement of the rules don't care about avoiding an incident is a bit insulting.
I'd appreciate a more direct answer from a respected club racer such as yourself about the question I posed about Scenario a) vs Scenario b) above. "Drivers must 'get it', and not hit each other" is not a rule, unfortunately. I too wish it was that simple. I'm sure you too, as a lawyer, understand the significance that rules have in guiding competition and resolving conflicting claims to a scarce resource (track/racing space, in this case).
It was a good "summation" and I agreed with everything in it, but it didn't answer the questions which I think are also important.
I'd appreciate a more direct answer from a respected club racer such as yourself about the question I posed about Scenario a) vs Scenario b) above. "Drivers must 'get it', and not hit each other" is not a rule, unfortunately. I too wish it was that simple. I'm sure you too, as a lawyer, understand the significance that rules have in guiding competition and resolving conflicting claims to a scarce resource (track/racing space, in this case).
It was a good "summation" and I agreed with everything in it, but it didn't answer the questions which I think are also important.
If this were pro racing it would be so much easier since a small amount of contact is deemed a racing incident. In club racing it is so much more difficult.
And with that I think we should close the thread. <kidding! kidding!>