NYC123

I don't think pure performance is really the deciding factor in terms of "collecting", rarity, significance related to the history of the brand, are two of may factors. Pure performance I think is not the deciding factor. If pure performance was the deciding factor a new 458 spciale would cost more than any vintage ferrari, or a new 911S more than a 73RS. I think there is just a mini bubble going on in modern special edition cars.

918man

Well said. I could not agree more. I paid msrp of around 900k for mine and I think its a tremendous value.

And I love and I mean love the everyday use of it

unotaz

I agree with your assessment, absolute performance does not determine value and collectibility.

It's about comparing the car to its competitors from the same era. In the 959 case, it's the F40. In the 918, it's the P1 and the LaF. All things considered, the value of the 918 at 1.5 million dollars is a fair value when the P1 is trading at 1.8 million and the LaF at 3.2+ million. Now with more magazine reviews coming out for the 918 (eg. Motortrend Head2Head), which has shown the 918 to be faster than the P1, there is no doubt in my mind that will drive the demand up for the 918 in the short term.

For the 959 and the F40, which car do you personally prefer? I would choose the F40 over the 959, but ultimately, I would get a F50 over the F40 because of the NA V12 engine. Even though there are about 5 times as many F40 than the 959, there is just a bigger demand for the Ferrari than the Porsche.

nuvolari612

The 918 is growing on me but it is the beginning of an era not the end.

P1 F1 - no one but Ferrari carries that type of panache and Ferrari has stated the 12 cylinder is staying but will have assisted electric motors as standard.

Anyway - the 918's are being offered everywhere and anywhere and that's not a good sign with so many incoming and appears the 960 is on it's way.

The one thing that concerned me when I considered a P1 or 918 was what if they tank like the MP4 - losing 100k won't bother me but losing 200 300 400k would turn my hobby into a business and that's no fun.

So to those pay 1M or 1.5M for a 918 good for them - but it's not a hobby at that point and if you second guess my post why the need for an exclusive fb page and or dealers tacking 3 - 500k. Makes Ferrari dealers look good and that isn't easy.

To each their own - 918 in hindsight might have been a good idea but the P1 was better but the MP4 pissed me off enough to grab the beast CGT with no regrets no matter where the price goes ... it's a hobby not a business so when these guys flip 918's it's really crap to a hobbyist especially when dealers bump the price to the point of insult.

These 918's showing at Barrett IMO is disgusting - unless someone ordered two and donates one to charity. Porsche again IMO did a crap job of verifying owners and to the owners if the scale tilted these quick flip 918's would by your worst nightmare regardless of wealth as they were not bought to be driven or held.

superquant

soon enough your cgt might become so valuable that choosing when to use it becomes a business! seems like the message overall is that speculative trading in luxury assets is a bad idea and just like any other mania this one is nothing new .. so look at history to determine how it goes from here.

seems like as usual the ones that should be worried are the speculators and short termers and not those that are into the car on a deeper level

918man

Each person has right to buy a car and do as they wish. My 918 has appreciated on paper enough to buy a cgt. I own a cgt already and I have no intention of selling my 918 which by the way I was offered a p1 straight trade for it already. Say what you like but 918 buyers and the 918 has done way way better then the cgt has out of the gate. I also think its not a cgt or a 918. Both are fantastic and different. Imho 918s will grow in value. Under 5 percent of the us market will always trade and be up for sale. The other 95 percent will be bought and held and driven by people like me that love the car. Etc. Just my opinion

unotaz

You can't blame Porsche for not filtering out the flippers. PCNA already did a great job with the 918 VIP program. For a lot of people, including myself, that program alone is worth the purchase price of the 918. First dibs in the next 10 years on all limited Porsche models and getting any regular production models by cutting to the front of the line is simply awesome!

Was I surprised to see how much the value increased for the 918 in such a short amount of time? Yes. It is certainly doing a lot better than the CGT allocation fiasco back in 2004 when it was first launched. There is no doubt in my mind that the 918 will double in value in 6-8 years time (just like how the CGT doubled its value, considering it has twice many cars here in the US)

nuvolari612

Not in my case. When I was offered and agreed to buy a new 599 GTO. Dealers sent me a form that the car had to be offered to them first. I was livid and told them to keep the car. Later I found out that is very common and many dealers of rare new exotics have their customers agree to the document. P1 was the same dealer as the GTO his first comment was you know the rules and we aren't changing them. I told him fine but the MP4 would need to be bought back. Their comment - we don't want your MP4 and can't get rid of the ones we do have oh and the new ones are 65k discounted.

When I was offered a 918 dealer stated sign a doc but it's dead in 9 months and you are then free to sell the car anytime before we take it back at market not over list - that's a fact and the dealer just did the same thing on a car I bought last week because it would be exported and he would get dinged 40k.

I am just going off my personal experience. Perhaps in bigger cities where there is less conscious people don't mind breaking their word or an agreement but if Ferrari finds out someone is a flipper they are black listed forever.

One week ago while searching for a 458 Aperta - finally found a dealer with a slot. Won't say who but they demanded a donation to their race team of 100k for the slot because Ferrari would frown upon them if they sold above list.

nuvolari612

Ok - so that was my rub with the 918. Dealer and regional representative said it won't happen again we learned our lesson on the CGT.

Well sure enough - it's happening and even worse on the dealers own lot.

I admire the 918 real owners - honestly it's a lot better car than I thought it would be. But if the scales were turned it would be a VERY ugly scene. I lived it on the Mclaren Life forum with the MP4 - 12C.

Today it's a different economy so is it really the car or lucky timing - one always runs out and the long term guys sweep up the mess. On the other hand for the guys who just bought it for the right reasons and money is secondary - enjoy!

NYC123

I agree for sure if you are comparing cars of the same era yes at 1.3mln or so a 918 "makes sense" in terms of performance compared to a 2mln p1. I can understand that. However, this is not wants is driving the prices up. What is driving the prices up is the perception of what it could be with in the future. The pure performance stats were published long ago when they had a hard time selling the cars. the performance did not change this Feb vs last Nov. Most people buying these things for 400k over sticker are just chasing what they can't have, they don't know a great car from a watermelon. If a limited edition volvo sold was sold out tomorrow these same people would be paying over sticker for those. The easiest way to sell a car today is simply tell somebody they can't have it and double the price. There is a new breed of new money "collectors" that thing whatever has gone up over the past year is what they need to buy. It is going on with many limited edition modern cars. Look at ferrari superamerica , once 1 car sold for 500k at auction everybody had to have it... same thing with 918 and man other modern cars.... just remember same thing happened with 07/08 gt3rs cars they were 50-75k over msrp for a while when they came out.. then way below msrp for a long time now coming back a little.. just like the 918 those early rs cars were wonderful cars all along they never changed .... just saying prices don't have to only go up its not hard to see 918 prices going back to msrp or less 1-2 years from now, or staying were they are now 200-300 over msrp odds are probably equal of both outcomes... don't kid yourself into thinking things can "only " go up especially when its a modern car to be replaced with another model in a few years and made in fairly high #'s

is it a great car, yes it is but that does not mean pries can only go up

918man

I think Porsche did a really good job with the 918. Just my opinion.

Remember, there are 300 in states. So maybe there are 5 for sale. They are outliers. Its not like the market is flooded with them.

At the end of the day, Porsche really doesn't care once the car is sold. They make their money and move on. They wont blacklist a 918 buyer because the buyer is too special and is a potential buyer in the future for another Porsche etc..

The 918 owners are happy. Car is worth significantly more than msrp. And Porsche has delivered the best hypercar comparatively that has smoked the competition. I love the VIP program as well. I am, and I know many 918 owners are, extremely happy with the purchase.

I am planning to drive the snot out of the car so when I go to sell (which will be never as I plan to give to my son) it will be a high mileage example and I ll be dam proud of that

NYC123

There are way more than 5 for sale. Many dealers bought them to flip they are just not allowed to advertise and sell them till after all have been delivered to customers. Remember most have not yet been delivered. I think we will know the market much better after this winter once all have been delivered and then the dealers are allowed to sell th cars they bought to flip.

918man

I don't think there are way more then 5 for sale.

I also don't believe that dealers are flipping them. If a dealer bought one there are more then enough buyers out there to sell it.

You actually buy the car from pcna not the dealer. You must pay pcna in full and the name must be registered at that point before the car leaves ga before it goes to the dealer so Porsche knows who the buyer is. I was in Germany, on the 918 line and spoke to senior people involved in 918. Very few US dealers bought them is what was told to me. They also said at the end there were more buyers then cars. There is supposedly a wait list at pcna of 25 deep for 918's. In the beginning, you could have bought two cars but as the tests came out and the cars hit the car became more desirable etc. I guess.

Not sure where you are getting your information from but there are very few cars that were purchased by dealer principals. For example, Roger Penske bought a red one. He has no intentions of selling it or flipping it. But technically he, a dealer, purchased one. I know of two other dealer principals that are my friends that purchased the 918 and as a courtesy sold to an important client that needed to have one. That was not a flip in my mind. That is good business because these dealers know there are people at this level that just wont plan or wait for the car. Too type a I guess.

Hate to tell you but the market is the market. The market today is the market today. Tomorrow, who knows and that goes for every Porsche and every car in the world. So much of it depends on the stock market, international economy etc... The 918 market is strong. I could make 500k on my car and if I sold and I know that just pisses people off who bought the cgt. I own a cgt. It doesn't **** me off. The cgt is a great car it will appreciate but the fact is the 918 is off to way better start then the cgt. Factual, not anything more then that.

I m just so surprised on why people have such an issue with a limited production car being worth then MSRP when the McLaren and Ferraris are so why should not Porsche be as well. Hell its a better car!!!!

NYC123

You are correct about some of your points here but wrong about your overall point. First of all there have not been that many delivered yet so we really have no idea what the real "market" is till after they are all delivered and dealers that bought to flip are allowed to put those on the market. What I mean by that is as follows: yes you are correct there is a wait list and cars have to be sold to people not dealers. However what is going on is as follows. Many dealer bought a car for the owners of the dealerships. They are allowed one per dealership they own. So for example I know of one dealer that has multiple p car dealerships in different locations. He bought 1 car for himself for each dealership that he owns. He intention is to flip all of them. However, as per PCNA rules he can't do that till after all cars have been delivered to customers. If he were to try and flip his cars now for a big premium PCNA would have a major issue with it and like try and force him to give up the car to the other 2 people on the waiting list. However, once all customer ordered cars have been delivered (I think thats this fall/winter time frame) then all bets are off and dealers can do what they want. I know of atleast 15 cars that have been bought with this intention to flip at premiums. They will be offered once all customer cars have been delivered. Some of these are simply sitting as display cars on showroom floors right now.
The point is that we really will be able to better judge the pricing structure of the 918 market this coming winter once all cars have been delivered. Right now its just hard to know what the market will be like as not all that many have been delivered and a bunch of these cars just waiting to be flipped. In addition there are many cars that end users bought to use, but now that they see some of the prices out there they also plan to flip. They did not originally buy with this intention, but now that they see 300k over MSPR this is their plan. So point being a fairly large percentage of the yet to be delivered cars will come for sale is the market stays at 300k over.
I think the cars are great , I have no skin in the game and really don't care if prices go up down or sideways, I simply think common sense would say it is not 100% given that prices can only go up with many to be delivered cars planning on being flipped. I just think a year from now we will have a better sense of the market structure.
More importantly I hope everybody enjoys their cars.

Whoopsy

PCNA delivered 94 918s all of last year, another 36 in January. Don't have numbers for Feb/March but a good guess would be around 65 together if not more. That puts 205 or so delivered, leaving 90 left, 3 months to finish delivery of all cars.

As for payment, a lot of dealers wants the customer to pay up front before transport simply because they don't want a million dollar of their own working capital being tied up.

Porsche had asked all the dealer principals to each buy one initially, just to fill up the order book. Some had early allocations and had since taken delivery, others who had late ones which weren't locked yet, and they ended up selling the car when everyone was rushing to buy one late last year. My own dealer's principal actually took 2 allocations, sold the 1st one and just had the 2nd one delivered not too long ago, he is hanging onto the car first before deciding what to do.

For dealer principal cars, those are technically 'sold', but they aren't really in reality, most didn't title the car so they can be considered as dealer inventory. They won't be discounted much, as there isn't much meat on the bone between dealer invoice and MSRP, around 40k-50k or so. The principals are not going to take a loss simply to get rid of one, with current asking price well above a million, they can afford to sit on one for a while to wait for the right buyer.

Some dealers take a loss on selling regular yearly models simply to boost volume and maybe get to the next tier on future car allocations, the 918s aren't like that as there are no next year's model waiting to come in and the 918s sold by each dealer is already set and recorded.