jasonhartracing.com

I am curious what the thoughts would be here regarding pros and cons to taking Grand-Am Rolex GT spec 997 cups to GT1 instead of GTA2. My motivation here is for folks who own these cars to not have to compete against GT3R and RSR spec cars. My hope is this would give these cars a place to compete amongst themselves and hold their value / configuration long term. These are great cars with substantial investments to convert them to GT spec, many having fantastic history and are a bargain right now as they are outclassed in GTA2. I have read the rules and they seem to fit as they were raced in Grand-Am and should be competitive in the class. With the #222 Andial car racing in GT1 it would also give drivers who own these more competition and also preserve their value...the 5 Brumos 4L cars would also fit nicely. The rules state that if you are on a R compound tire then you have to run a "R" after the GT1 and 50lbs extra weight to the index...but with GT1 being the top class there should be no penalty for R compound as well as no real reason to run the "R". This would have to be verified with PCA I imagine...or possibly be presented as a rule change so the cars just run "GT1". If anyone reads this and replies please also state if you own one of these cars with your reply and what your thoughts may be. I would also be interested in what some of the shop owners think. Thanks for reading if you do, J

Full disclosure, the #72 that will race at COTA is a car I will be with and the stated above is the consideration for the #72 being changed to run in GT1. We are looking to see if there is any reason not to move forward with running in GT1.

joeykid

I like your proposal. I have a 997 Rolex cup with a 4.0L. I have seriously been looking to move out of PCA racing or this class due to the inability to compete against an RSR or GT3R in my class. There are races where the competition is in similar cars to my Rolex car. However, when I show up to VIR and there is a 2013 GT3R I know I cannot win. With the 991 now out, we will see more of the 997 RSR and GT3R in club racing. I have often thought about a different class.

coryf

The problem with GT1 is the chance of a monster turbo car showing up. Like the car James from GMG brought out to road America (and the HSR Daytona) That car is GT1 and was 20mph faster on the straight at road America than our RSR. It also did 212 at Daytona! Also what would be keeping the 3R's and RSR's from going to GT1 as well? I submitted a rules change a few years ago to eliminate GTA and group all the cars into the "normal" GT classes. Its based on potential engine power for a certain engine type and displacement vs weight. The individual throttle R and RSR based engines would put them in a higher class than the Cup based engines. A big reshuffle of the current classes would probably have to be done since balancing out all the older aircooled cars performance with the newer cars would be difficult. The big difference between the 3R/RSR and the 4,0l cup isn't power, its grip. Its not cheap but someone could update the bodywork and tire size on a 4.0 cup and have very similar performance to the 3r/rsr. Or just buy our RSR from us.

spg993tt

Joey, you can win. have confidence in yourself. if you believe you are faster, you will be faster. Positive thoughts, eliminate the negative. its about your inner self....and, hop up that 4liter with new bodywork!!<G>

Coco_951

The dig on racing for me is money can buy you wins going on up the ranks of racing to the top level. I've been shopping for a new ride and for sure I'm avoiding any GTA situation. Even the stock classes are dominated by vehicles/drivers that can afford to push the limits. Obviously GT1 and GTA2 is the pinnacle of disparity in cars because there is no ceiling to them. These low development level GTA cars need to erase expectations of club racing victories at the premier events....

Nizer

And carry a bigger stick

analogmike

GTA2 class was fantastic when we were just modified cups. It had been one of the larger classes at some races, with really tight competition. The RSRs and Rs are killing it. I mentioned to the rules makers a year or so ago, that the R and RSR drivers are running for the overall win, and don't need to be in GTA2, they can be in GTP or GTO (Overall). But as Cory said, it is possible to make a cup pretty much into an RSR... so how do you differentiate?

The rule comments period is now, I will be writing a letter and hope others will too. I'm just not sure what the best way to differentiate a GTA2 "cup" from a "R/RS" is.

mklaskin

Next year may get really interesting when the GTD Cups start popping up in PCA events...

jasonhartracing.com

Sounds like it is tough to call without a clear differentiation in class structure. Could it be as simple as a Class structure where factory "Cup" cars are the base with RSR's and GT3R's are differentiated so long as factory motor configuration where maintained? Maybe something like
GTA1: 996 Cup based
GTR1: 996 R/RSR based
GTA2: 997 Cup based
GTR2: 997 R/RSR based
GTA3: 991 Cup based
GTR3: 991 R/RSR based (it will happen, and it will be awesome!!!)

Bodywork will be an issue, but I imagine a simple track width rule will take car of this even with the widened Rolex cars...the R/RSR is likely still wider.

Make paddle shift and ABS open...good reliability and safety options.

As long as it is not a turbo motor don't worry about 3.8, 4.0, 4.1xxx

I hate to propose more classes, but I feel the same way about all the Rolex cars collecting dust with all the history and investment they have. Bigger fields are always more fun, but I have a feeling it will not last if R/RSR cars dominate the class.

spg993tt

disagree with teh whole line of reasoning in chopping up gtA2. its a catch all class. went thru the same nonesense with GTB1. you had ex-napelton good cars, and then $240k WC caymans which were monsters bosch ms4 abs, aftermarket brembo brakes, RSR suspension, my ex-wc cayman was literally 4 seconds faster a lap at nJMP (short lap) than a napelton car. plus you then end up with 2 guys in ecah class when there are so few to begin with. call me a bit direct in my speak, but you bought a GTA2 car knowing the rules. live with it. you always knew that RSRs and Rs would come down the pipe as its a catch all. a ex rolex 4 liter rebuild is the same as an R rebuild. put $10k into R or RSR bodywork. and you're right there.
i just dont think fragmenting the class any more will help. just enjoy who you battle with . too many guys getting caught up in winning the massive class of 2 cars in GT1. just race who's in front of your and who's behind. enjoy and have fun. no prize money and noone gives a crap other than us on race day. if you told your pals yo uwon a big pca race and he asked how many in your class, and you said me and one other, he'd chuckle.

GTgears

Next year? Norton and Pumpelly were swapping sessions in the Park Place car at the Sebring 48 Hours.

mklaskin

I fully expect several more to be in the ranks. They make a compelling club racer and have nowhere else to go aside from historics.

coryf

PCA needs fewer classes, not more. I believe it would be too hard to draw a line between the R and Cup class. Track width would be the only difference. Not worth making a class just for that. It is definitely unfortunate that the ex rolex cups don't have a great place in pca. But a maxed rolex car is basically a 3r except for the added flairs and wing/splitter size. (some of the widened rear steel fenders on a rolex car were all most as wide as an early r) Since so much had been spent on one of those cars all ready, might as well add a KA motorsport body kit and it would be very close if not equal to the R/RSR. The early rolex cars have it even worse. We practically couldn't give a 07 grand am model away recently. It had a 3.6, different brake setup, some slightly widened bodywork but was no wear near a R/RSR or a late rolex car. It was too far from stock to be worth converting back to C4 so was very undesirable.

mobonic

Genuine RSR and 3R have traction control too, thats a huge difference when you have 500HP to the wheels and all of the modified cups and rolex cars dont have TC, so I would say thats a huge advantage, similar to ABS over non abs.

But again everyone that bought a Rolex, 3R, RSR, or modified cup knew from the beginning it would be GTA2 (I did) and those who want a spec class buy stock cups.

The appeal to me of these monster cars is to go as fast as you can go in a sports car/GT car platform, and the challenge and risk that comes with that level of speed.

But there is something to be said about the great close racing of spec classes as well, and GTC5 is looking VERY appealing to me.

Wouldn't a HP to weight ratio like other clubs use with weigh cars and mandatory dyno's a better way to? We all know what a 3.8, 4.0 & 4.2L cup engines make its just a math calc. and its easy to weigh the top 5 cars after a race.

MSR Racer

I agree with spg993tt. Spirit of PCA club racing is in the stock and spec classes including GTC cup cars in factory spec. Once you move out these clasess, balance of performance is a moot point and only makes for good conversation or debate over beer. Look at the air-cooled Gt classes, no two cars are similar!!