HiWind

Decisions ... decisions. Would some of you long time racers, tuners and cup owners care to share some insight from your many cup and GT3 ownership experiences? I'd really appreciate short or long answers as always ... because at the races this weekend a guy with quite a collection of P's came up to me and asked if I'd consider swapping my 6RS for his 01 cup. It's a straight swop i.e. his 01 cup with 12k kms for my 27k km 6RS (back in stock form). I have 3 weeks before the next race to decide!

01Cup has: tilton clutch, 'R' gearbox with oil cooler (not heat exchanger that came later), 04 nose inc bigger radiators, 2x BBS rims, 6 pot calipers in front, replaced loom, jack-wand, a Recaro halo and a set of 2way JRZ (red) in the box ...
... else its stock i.e. bosch ecu w odbII, abs, steel bonnet, glass quarter windows, fan, manual fire extinguisher, no motec etc.. Engine never been rebuilt - looks like 100 hours but PC refreshed and redid car in last 9 mos. Not ideal though but very pedantic head mechanic there does the cups and says he was happy with it (fwtw). Car is shiny clean all round, having been on PC floor recently. The car is 3 owners, rebuilt, jigged and refreshed after the first two and a medium crash (hence the nose conversion), and then the 3rd owner (the swapper) rebuilt gearbox, put in tilton clutch and has done 17 hrs (wants a 2010 Cup now as he's tired of his 430 Fiat). He has 4 race cars inc the cup, a 964 clubsport and a 430 challenge, with the CS his primary as it's the most competitive.

996RS has: stock race spec w halogen, recaros, CF bonet, lexan backwindow, CF wing, alcantara with front cage i.e. remove all my bits and keep them > CG exhaust w equal length headers, 4 Giro disks, the VPH battery, the 7 OMP cup wheel, cup cables, 997 shifter, RSS parts and H&R linear springs

Why change? More than expected, I like racing alot more than I like the road use of my 6RS, and I loved the RS anywhere. The 'enjoyment' delta between race and road is just much bigger than I realised. And if I had to choose - I do unfortunately - I'd rather have a race car that gets 12-15 weekends of thorough use a year than the odd Porsche Parade autoX, top speed run and breakfast run in the RS with 5-6 DE style track days.

In reality I've realised (might be getting old!) that the RS just never gets to do what it can on a road in a safe manner. On the track it's great and you can drive there and home (huge plus) but with extended use/racing will likely loosen it up too much or I'll get to the point of wanting to lighten it by 200kg (it's 1400 now) or 3.9 it which will take it over the edge.

Value: A large part of the what makes it a hard decision is a longer term one in that the 6RS is a super-rare beast with only 600 odd around (orig 680) and only 120 (140) of which are RHD i.e. suited to the colonies. With 12 track weekends and races now, mine is still straight and clean and hasn't crossed the great divide that is stripping it out or 3.9'ing. In stock, unbent, unraced (or cleaned up nicely) form it is likely to start appreciating as a rare classic in 3-5 years. I base my rough expectations on the 993 RS's and 964 Clubsports which are far ahead of the 6's already, although recent US classic car auction records are admittedly coloring my vision. But 6RS prices haven't dropped in 2 years now and they're likely to keep up (though not not catch up) with 993 from now on, imo. IF i stopped racing it I recon it will start to appreciate from a rarity perspective while the cup will always just be the first in a long line of cups, of which the newer ones are getting cheaper each season. So I can remove non-stock racer parts and the car will be the generational classic road car it was in March. I could use/sell most of those parts on the cup, especially the RSS suspension. But I would have to stop racing and start gentle DE'ing only (if that).

So the essence of the story is I'd have to stop racing and starting polishing my car if I wanted to hold on to it for the upside ... or trade it for a cup car that will need maintenance but will be better to race.

But what else should I consider??? Is the upgraded 01 worth it? What are they big problems with it as a model?

Here some pics .... google web album

It's a toss up between pristine classic and more enjoyable 'pursuits'.
I look forward to you takes - thanks!

Matt

Glen

The moment is all that is real. Yesterday no longer exists and the future is an unknown. The best time to do something is when You can....

wagongotya

nope

Serge944

I personally wouldn't do it. But only you can decide what's right for you.

And if you're thinking engine upgrades down the line...go all the way and do a 4 liter. I recently met a guy that used to work for PMNA and found out that the Mahle 4 liter pistons/liners I used for my build were originally developed by factory Porsche/Brumos Racing for their Daytona prototype car back in '06.

See mention of the "3.99 flat-6" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytona_Prototype

993PET

I agree 100%

GTgears

Yep, which is why, just last Friday I traded my '85 Carrera for a '67 912. For this moment in time it is more the car I want though many might consider it a lesser vehicle.

I look at this Cup vs .6RS trade question the same way. Personally, I think all the early 996 Cups are going to come collectible like the 964 and 993 factory racecars before them. 997's not so much, but 996 Cups? yes. And seen through that light, Glen's point hits the bullseye. We really don't know whether a .6RS street car or an early .6 Cup will be worth more in 10 years, or maybe they will be the same. But if the itch is to go racing, scratch the itch. They are worth about the same today. And if you think your .6RS is worth more than this particular early Cup, sell your RS and use cash to buy a Cup...

Surfbum

Answer is simple....Which one would enjoy driving most?
Everything else does not matter.

HiWind

.... Glen, thanks. I thought you might have coached a few people through this question before Guess that's why you're able to answer a page with a line and a good one at that.

For sure GT - I see where you (and most others it seems) are going and you're likely right ... Damn, I want you to be! I guess it a question of rarity. How many 996 cups were/are there? Far more than the 6RS I'd guess. But I'm maybe kidding myself a bit too as the real collector prices seem only to be there for spotless, untracked cars that people with few limits 'just want'. Its just so hard not to track these machines ... hence the premium for 'virgins'.

Yes that 'sell instead' angle is 100% right. I guess its the cleanness/known history of this particular car that I like, trust too. I should have added something on that. If I sell it's then a wait and see what comes along game, and having a swap available is a reasonably rare situation ... Glen's words above again.

Sergent 4.0, yes sah! Are you thinking Cup 4.0 or RS? Also what about this cup turns you off?

I'm just awaiting PC re the last refresh details - can't believe the car has 13k kms on a unrefreshed engine - not because it can't (I believe the engine could likely do 25-30k kms as I race with 6-3's that have 35-55 k kms on them and never been touched) but because PC has sold this car 3 times and they usually go all out here in SA brand-wise/Porsche approved-wise rather than sell a cheaper & riskier product. Credit where it due, but it makes their pricing power huge.

... SB, like Glen above I think that's pretty much right. I want to race, love racing and traveling around to new tracks, even hanging out mid-pack hasn't been a problem as long as there's a dice to be had! And the RS has been so good to me .. I've only driven your cups! (via youtube/imagination) ... but that will change next week I hope.

So thanks guys .... and thanks also to this thread ... Q&A, Paul, Rob S, Flt Mike, Franc, Harris and others speak much sense .. the issue now appears clearer. Itch, meet Scratch.

So it's simply this:

Is a reasonably upgraded, very clean 01 Cup with:

GT3 R gearbox (w oil cooler)
Tilton Clutch, 6 pot calipers, new loom, new lw fw
new RSS bits & new JRZ 2ways
04 bumper w bigger rads, back centre exhaust bumper too
VPH battery
CG equal length headers
new Giro disks
Very clean ie not a scratch on the tub

.... a good package i.e. one that will last and I won't grow out of too quick? I take a lot of confidence from the fact that the .6 mkI in the pics I posted of our last race (google album) runs with many of the cups, and that's a car with 40k kms of track RACING over last 7 years on its stock 01 engine and box (though quite light and a Gr8! driver). And in this low growth world I'm just not feeling the need to spend another 30% of my cars value to get into a 7 although John highlights they run rings around the 6's ... Drivers aside

Special When Lit

I wonder what these 996 GT3 RS are actually "really" selling for at the moment.

There's always 5 to 10 models offered on the various European websites, most with low mileage between 10K-30K Kilometers and priced anywhere between 80K and 100K euros.. but none of these seems to be moving at all of course.

There's a "blue" one advertised in France for several months now. PCCB and only 16,000 kilometers. Seller started at 85K euros, now listed at 75K euros since June and the ad is still there.

In the last couple of weeks there was a low mileage as well offered for 68K euros on mobile.de and the ad seems to be gone for now.

HiWind

Good point. Bought mine in Nov 11 for $100k and since then 4 have sold here for same price with 18-31k km's, all have same spec as we only got the race spec w halogen and alcantara etc.. 1 of these was actually last week. But SA is a small market; more alternatives in EU. But remember the 04 cups are about half that around there aren't they? 6Cups here are all $90-110k but with very varied spec and history.

Q&A

The question is do you want to step up towards a Cup car ?
no more going to and from the track. No more taking her for a spin on a early sunday morning along the coast.
Going cup is hardcore, trailering, slicks, 5 second faster lap times and 100% more feel, passion and excitement.

Your RS is worth much more then a 01 Cup so don't take that offer.
If you want to Cup. Take your time and sell your RS first. I guess it's around 70.000 euro
You just need to find the buyer. Advertise in Japan, Hong Kong and UK. If it were an LHD car it would have been a bit easier to sell.

70.000 will get you a totally fresh (less then 10 hrs) '04 cup car with 2 sets of wheels, a Brian James Trailer and a used Mercedes Vito to take you everywhere and back ;-)

crashtest22

Just my .02
If it were me I would look at the value of both and make a rational decision on if it were a good trade for both parties.
Value in my opinion is not always just the money aspect of it but also the emotion of it.
ehh....screw it...I would do what my gut wanted.
if you want it do it if not dont

GTgears

HiWind,
Something else to consider is that your .6RS has been tracked/raced. If you take it to the open market, the first thing a guy like me is going to do is take your 12 weekends on track, and start doing math based on average kph on the local SA tracks and start to estimate how many hours are on your engine and gearbox. Your actual mileage goes right out the window to a buyer like me bcause I know what kind of abuse track time puts on the drivetrain and will be looking at it as a wear item that is going to need service. Your car is worth less than a car with equal mileage that has never seen the track because your car is wearing out more quickly.

Niave buyers miss that all the time. I don't know how many threads I've seen over in RLs regular GT3 forums about some guy who just bought a car with less than 20k mi on it and he needs a gearbox or engine overhaul and can't figure out why. Track miles are track hours. New P-Car buyers forget that. Savy ones will do the math and depreciate the value of your car accordingly. Just something to think about as you weigh these options.

Juan Lopez

Well said. AS Uriah Heep sings "and today is only yesterday's tomorrow"

Surfbum

If you can get $100 k for your car, sell it outright, you can be REALLY picky for a 996 cup.
That should get you an 05 with a fresh PMNA motor and fresh box.
INSIST on receipts and to have a shop send the ECU to PMNA to verify how many total hours on the car, how many hours on the motor, and what kind of over revs on the motor.
Happy Shopping