FIA GT3/Cup car for an enthusiast?
12-01-2017, 07:08 PM
#1
FIA GT3/Cup car for an enthusiast?
I've been brainstorming ideas for a new toy, and the idea of a racing car popped into my head, but for one reason or another never thought they were attainable and thus the thought never crossed my mind. Is it crazy to consider a Cup car, a R8 LMS, 458 Challenge car, or the like as a track toy/collector item for the simple pleasure of owning one and not intending to race? While used race cars seem like an incredible performance value compared to their street car counterparts, perhaps their are other pitfalls that make this not so enticing, despite the fact they are restricted to the track.
Just from my limited research, these race cars seem more like aircraft, with component times and overhauls. If the car didn't see the abuse and high stress that they do competitve racing, would the engine and gearbox still need rebuilt at the recommended service intervals, or could they last much longer?
Not sure if this would be a foolish endeavor, so I'm trying to get a grasp of what I would be getting myself into. Or if I'm better off buying another sports car that I can enjoy on the streets...just without the same flare. I've always been intrigued by the raw and aggressive features of a true race car though, which is what has the gears turning
Just from my limited research, these race cars seem more like aircraft, with component times and overhauls. If the car didn't see the abuse and high stress that they do competitve racing, would the engine and gearbox still need rebuilt at the recommended service intervals, or could they last much longer?
Not sure if this would be a foolish endeavor, so I'm trying to get a grasp of what I would be getting myself into. Or if I'm better off buying another sports car that I can enjoy on the streets...just without the same flare. I've always been intrigued by the raw and aggressive features of a true race car though, which is what has the gears turning
12-01-2017, 09:12 PM
#2
Big topic but my vote would be go for a fresh build on a 997.2 Cup and hire a shop to provide you with support...another street car would be boring compared this this option...expect 100 hours on an engine and 60 hours on transmission.
12-01-2017, 09:45 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
We have MANY customers with fairly new Cupcars that have NO intention of EVER racing. Just taking to the track and enjoying the heck out of it. So no it is not crazy, but it is also not cheap. I was just having a conversation with Porsche Motorsports today on this exact topic of the DE / Enthusiast driver vs seasoned Pro 11/10s driver that the cars service intervals are geared towards. Porsche has designed, engineered and built recommended services for the 11/10s driver. So what to expect? Hard to say. 2x??? 3x??? Not enough info to say. On engines for 996 and 997s even with Club raced cars you can find cars with 2 and 3 times the intervals. Trannies different issue. Still longer than Porsche recommends like 2x (997 though can be WAY less if not run properly). But you have a RACE CAR at the end of the day. $3k a set of tires, lots of timed out parts, lots of service work, and at the track the new cars with all the technology are tough to run by yourself. So as with anything, depends on your wallet.
12-02-2017, 06:22 AM
#5
7.2 Cup $3k/hour to run with conservative maintenance. People quote $2-3k/hour of track time amortizing all costs. My observation including about 8 cup cars in the shop, various friends, and my own car is right around $3k/hour. A big part of that is 'slick addiction'. After 10 heat cycles on Pirellis, you are wanting stickers.
12-02-2017, 06:31 AM
#6
Yes a big topic for sure, but exciting to explore the Motorsport side world. Great info, much appreciated for everyone sharing their knowledge. I’m jumping ahead of myself here, but how does one go about placing a value on a used race car? Obviously the remaining life on the major components play a big role, and damage history, but where does one start, what critical questions need to be asked? Not quite like going on KBB or autotrader and checking used car values.
On the same token, what type of market is there for racing cars? My intention would be to find a long term keeper, but of course I can’t predict the future and curious as to the difficulty of finding a buyer for a track only car?
Viperbob, could you go into a little more detail on what makes the newer cars difficult to run alone? Are you referring to cost or the actual operation of them?
On the same token, what type of market is there for racing cars? My intention would be to find a long term keeper, but of course I can’t predict the future and curious as to the difficulty of finding a buyer for a track only car?
Viperbob, could you go into a little more detail on what makes the newer cars difficult to run alone? Are you referring to cost or the actual operation of them?
12-02-2017, 05:51 PM
#7
Hi nrgy. I definitely agree with these guys that it's not a crazy idea! If anything, I think it's crazier to try satisfy that feeling with cars on the street. Cup Cars are definitely next level and make a 700hp street car seem like grandma's cadi.
There are a number of things to consider when looking into buying a racecar but the good thing is, you can't really go wrong with a cup car in my opinion. I help people source and buy/sell race cars, so I would be more than happy to work with you to help you understand the pros/cons and find a car that fits your needs. You will obviously get a ton of advice here as well...I would tend to agree going with a 997.2 Cup is the way to go but even a 991.1 would be a great option for a DE car. The 991.1s are a bit more daunting to drive at the absolute limit but in general are 'nicer' cars and the gearbox is much more robust. The running cost is about the same, but the 991.1 has a bit more specifics where you would want someone with experience to run it. Either way there are a ton of shops that run Cups that should be able to help you out as suggested above.
Feel free to reach out to me if you would like some help! I have a lot of experience with these cars from track days to the highest pro level.
The other cars you mentioned like FIA GT3 cars or a ferrari challenge car are also viable options, just not as friendly to work on as a Cup Car and more expensive parts etc.
Either way, driving race cars is an amazing thing so have fun with the process of learning it all!
Sloan
sloan@sloanurryracing.com
There are a number of things to consider when looking into buying a racecar but the good thing is, you can't really go wrong with a cup car in my opinion. I help people source and buy/sell race cars, so I would be more than happy to work with you to help you understand the pros/cons and find a car that fits your needs. You will obviously get a ton of advice here as well...I would tend to agree going with a 997.2 Cup is the way to go but even a 991.1 would be a great option for a DE car. The 991.1s are a bit more daunting to drive at the absolute limit but in general are 'nicer' cars and the gearbox is much more robust. The running cost is about the same, but the 991.1 has a bit more specifics where you would want someone with experience to run it. Either way there are a ton of shops that run Cups that should be able to help you out as suggested above.
Feel free to reach out to me if you would like some help! I have a lot of experience with these cars from track days to the highest pro level.
The other cars you mentioned like FIA GT3 cars or a ferrari challenge car are also viable options, just not as friendly to work on as a Cup Car and more expensive parts etc.
Either way, driving race cars is an amazing thing so have fun with the process of learning it all!
Sloan
sloan@sloanurryracing.com
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12-02-2017, 07:44 PM
#9
He ain't lyin ^ It all depends on what you really are looking to do, but starting out with something with less consequences is not a bad idea if you are looking to push yourself. Miatas are definitely the best bang for your buck to learn in, in my opinion. The amount of grip those little buggers have is impressive and it doesn't have driver aids so it would prep you for a Cup fairly well. Haven't had much experience with boxsters/caymans but I'm sure they are great as well.
12-03-2017, 02:40 AM
#10
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Race cars are so complex that you almost want a crew just to a track day in it. Trailering, etc.
If you are not racing it, you can drag out service intervals. But that dosnt help resale..
Market tends to slowly drop on them as they become less current with each season that passes by. So resale investment is not really there, but there will always be buyers for factory race cars.
If you are looking to stash away something that you can play with or look at, consider an already appreicating 964 or 993 Cup. 996 GT3 RS race car is also a decent buy right now.
996 cup that are good are hard to find.
997 Cups have sequentials and are costly to rebuild. Alot of them made from 2005-2013.
991 Cups are harder to repair body due to aluminum tub.
Without serious race history, mass produced late model factory race cars are not going to appreciate anytime soon.
On a side note, the Cayman GT4 Clubsport can be had for as low as 130s. Easy to own and easy to go fast.
That might be something worth considering a car you can park for show in the garage or occassional track day without much headache.
Having a Cup car stashed in the garage for show is cool, but not something i would sugguest leaving parked for the sake of only a couple of uses a years. You will grow tired of the expenses per hour really quick.
If you got tonnes of money to burn, buy a current 991.2 GT3 Cup and hire a shop to store and crew it for DE. track days.
After a year or two you can sell it with low hours while it is still somewhat current and get out with your shirt.
The cost to park and crew it will be the cost of the smile on your face while you got to use it for that time. Not cheap. But bucket list experience for those who can afford it.
I want a Cup car someday. But for me, i am waiting until im ready to race one. And when im done with it, i will keep it in my collection to admire.
If you are not racing it, you can drag out service intervals. But that dosnt help resale..
Market tends to slowly drop on them as they become less current with each season that passes by. So resale investment is not really there, but there will always be buyers for factory race cars.
If you are looking to stash away something that you can play with or look at, consider an already appreicating 964 or 993 Cup. 996 GT3 RS race car is also a decent buy right now.
996 cup that are good are hard to find.
997 Cups have sequentials and are costly to rebuild. Alot of them made from 2005-2013.
991 Cups are harder to repair body due to aluminum tub.
Without serious race history, mass produced late model factory race cars are not going to appreciate anytime soon.
On a side note, the Cayman GT4 Clubsport can be had for as low as 130s. Easy to own and easy to go fast.
That might be something worth considering a car you can park for show in the garage or occassional track day without much headache.
Having a Cup car stashed in the garage for show is cool, but not something i would sugguest leaving parked for the sake of only a couple of uses a years. You will grow tired of the expenses per hour really quick.
If you got tonnes of money to burn, buy a current 991.2 GT3 Cup and hire a shop to store and crew it for DE. track days.
After a year or two you can sell it with low hours while it is still somewhat current and get out with your shirt.
The cost to park and crew it will be the cost of the smile on your face while you got to use it for that time. Not cheap. But bucket list experience for those who can afford it.
I want a Cup car someday. But for me, i am waiting until im ready to race one. And when im done with it, i will keep it in my collection to admire.
12-04-2017, 01:11 AM
#11
I've owned a race car, a 2011 997 Cup. I tried the "cheap" route. DIdn't work
I'm now of the opinion of "do it right or don't do it"
So, its a $ game again
Buying the car is fine. Let a team run it for you. Race it in club series or AM or Pro-Am or whatever. Or just DE it. But it is a race car and it needs to be treated as such.
A Cup needs frequent maintenance and day-by-day setup to be at peak trim. Otherwise you leave 2-3s on the table. Couple that with DE pace of 5-7s off, you're honestly better off with a road going 991RS
I'm now of the opinion of "do it right or don't do it"
So, its a $ game again
Buying the car is fine. Let a team run it for you. Race it in club series or AM or Pro-Am or whatever. Or just DE it. But it is a race car and it needs to be treated as such.
A Cup needs frequent maintenance and day-by-day setup to be at peak trim. Otherwise you leave 2-3s on the table. Couple that with DE pace of 5-7s off, you're honestly better off with a road going 991RS
12-04-2017, 10:01 AM
#12
I guess that’s what got me looking at race cars to begin with. I’ve gone down the path of modding street cars before, my latest adventure being a 760hp LP570, and while certainly a thrill, a true race car is the pinnacle for any car enthusiast I imagine. I’m coming to the realization spending thousands to make a street car perform like a race car and fall far short, as you pointed out Sloan, is crazy!
Operating costs, however, are no joke as I see and writing checks every track weekend could zap some of the enjoyment no doubt. I’m not a stranger to expensive hobbies unfortunately, and need to consider if I want to take on another one! But thank you for sharing all your real world experience with running these cars, and the reality check as well. As of now I’m not discouraged yet, but will try and visit some shops to get an up close look at said cars.
Operating costs, however, are no joke as I see and writing checks every track weekend could zap some of the enjoyment no doubt. I’m not a stranger to expensive hobbies unfortunately, and need to consider if I want to take on another one! But thank you for sharing all your real world experience with running these cars, and the reality check as well. As of now I’m not discouraged yet, but will try and visit some shops to get an up close look at said cars.
12-05-2017, 02:04 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
" I figure my 6cup is 1k an hour to run in HPDE and 3k an hour to race.
Feel free to correct me if Im wrong."
Only because you make us race on stickers for every race . If you had agreed to a truce and 1 set of new tires that we had to use for 2 races you would cur our expenses in half
Feel free to correct me if Im wrong."
Only because you make us race on stickers for every race . If you had agreed to a truce and 1 set of new tires that we had to use for 2 races you would cur our expenses in half
12-05-2017, 05:46 PM
#15
Nordschleife Master
Just in car costs on 991 CUP for things amortizing engine rebuild, tranny rebuild, slicks, maintenance, fuel, etc. we estimate $150-$175 per lap at Sebring. This does not include and track services, hotels, travel, etc. Just parts and labor...