Jim Michaels

C&D said they requested models of each car fitted with their respective performance options.

LastMezger

I don't know why anyone would be surprised by this. Cayman has superior handling dynamics. Given the same power as a Carrera it will be faster. Obvious really.

I also don't understand why it would bother anyone. Nobody buys a 911 (myself included) because it's the fastest car for the money.

A Cayman along the lines of the Boxster Spyder? That would be an absolute BLAST to drive!

cfjan

I think people are surprised because the one tested was a Carrera S w/ quite a bit more horsepower compare to the Cayman S. And from other tests (such as the Ring time, when driven by the factory pilot), it shows that Carrera S to be faster.

I think the Carrera S should be faster (just my guess) if someone familiar w/ 911 was the test driver.. ?!

LastMezger

Ring time faster with a factory driver? Go figure;-)

No matter the driver there are physics that cannot be overcome. I know a few Porsche racers (like international Champs) that'll tell you the Cayman delivers higher cornering speeds. At a relatively tight track like VIR with numerous unsettling elevation changes this result isn't surprising at all.

cfjan

I'm not arguing that the Cayman S w/ its mid-engine isn't a better handling car.. or has higher potential.. and for sure it is easier to drive fast.. (we have a Cayman S in my family too.. wife's car) But for a pro driver, they should be able to utilize the horsepower advantage better than regular folks..

Bodhii

At the first major race at Daytona for the GS class of the 2010 Grand Am series, a Porsche Cayman race car, #23, with significantly less HP, and smaller tires than all of the competing Porsche 997 911's, finished ahead of all but one of the full race 997 911's in the final race results.

During this Grand Am's qualifying race, a different Cayman, the #38 car that unfortunately was damaged early during the final race, finished the qualifying race AHEAD OF ALL of the 997 911's! ALL!

Actually with a better pro driver, I believe the Cayman would win more often than not. A real pro would certainly know how to utilize the superiority of the Cayman platform over the lesser (slower) rear-engine 911 platform, even with the 911's greater grunt HP and larger tires.

And so it would seem even at Daytona, which is considered very much a "hi speed, big HP" type race course. The question is,.. just how superior is the Porsche Cayman platform over the long time favored by Porsche, rear-engined 911.?... At both the Nurburgring in 2006 and at Daytona in 2010, the superiority of platforms would appear to be significant.

cscrogham

Hold on for just a minute-let's not forget that in Grand Am trim the Cayman S with DFI (320hp) is allowed to run at about 2700#, and the 2006-2007 only 911 is allowed in base trim (325hp) running at closer to 3200#. That's about 500# difference in a similar hp car! Of course the engines can be slightly modified to improve power, but those are the base hp numbers that Grand Am uses.
They have hammered on the 997 since I tried to introduce it in 2005 and had a decent season with Brent Martini and Pat Long, it was me against the factory Ford and Chevy reps since Porsche wouldn't even touch it. No idea why they hate the 911 so much, but I am surprised the 911 is even close.
They will not allow the DFI 911 with modifications to improve the performance potential against the "factory" entries, which is a shame, so the results you see are rather "manufactured" in my opinion.

Trj

The course they used lacks the back straight which always sets them apart. In addition, I agree that the drivers were not comfortable with the platform of the 997 which is tougher to drive than the S on the track. That being said the cayman is a very stable and easy car to drive on the track. I would take either one but think the S is the faster car stock.

Jim Michaels

Cole makes a good point; that race classes are "fabricated" for various reasons. Thus, we're probably better off keeping our performance comparisons to stock cars driven by non-professionals; even if that means debating why a 997 S and a Cayman S turned the same lap times on the VIR grand course.

Bodhii

Agreed. All are valid points.

I do wish that some rich son of a b**** would take a Cayman, strip it out completely, and equip it exactly as a 997.1 RSR and then put the two cars to the tests.

Until that happens the debate remains. It is quite refreshing to finally see Caymans racing in a big race series. Its been a very long time coming. And congrats to TRG for their fine finish with their 911.

FTS

+1 for sure; especially with any series administered by NASCAR/Grand-AM.

I am really reluctant to ask this question, but for years this has been bugging me. Why do people really think the mid-engine Cayman platform is superior to the 911's? In my personal opinion and only based on paper info as I have not driven a 911, the 911 offers the best dynamic weight distribution in corner entry and exit. The mid-engine platform may be easier to drive at the limit, but at pro levels I am not sure it really makes a difference; I think it is more about the driver knowing how to utilize the advantages of any given platform.

Am I so off base on this?

LastMezger

I think it's pretty widely accepted that for predictable, controllable and maximum dynamics the more weight between the wheels the better. That said you are obviously correct that professional drivers can extract maximum performance from any configuration and Porsche does has a remarkable track record of motorsports successes.

TrackDays247.com

Next 911 will be mid-engined.

NJ-GT

For 2010 the 997 that ran at Daytona lost 200 lbs, as their new minimum weight is 3,000 lbs. The 997 3.8 is allowed at 3,000 lbs as well(sealed engine though). However, there is still a 300 lbs gap and that hurts plenty at Pro-level. I agree that those are manufactured results.

On another comparison test (Laguna Seca laps with Randy Pobst as driver), the 2009 Cayman S with PDK/PASM/LSD was just 0.4 secs slower than the 997 Turbo (480 Hp car).

Having driven the new Cayman S 3 times, one of them at an autoX, the car is a lot better than the first generation car, lots of torque down low, about the same handling. The engine makes the difference. The PDK helps at the racetrack a lot, and the LSD was a necessary option since 2006.

cello

I agree fully. I think it a matter of time......

You know this gets to the kernel of it in my mind. I love the Cayman and very much respect the mid engined platform. Indeed Porsche's initial 'race-cars' were mid-engined designs and there is written support for the proposition that the rear engined cars came about to satisfy the market's 'grand-touring' needs....

But, getting down to it, the rear engined platform has been incredibly successful. Some say its primarily because of Porsche's reliability and toughness; e.g., it wins the war of attrition. This is true to a point.

But i think it ignores a very important point - That there is a specific way to race a rear engined car that makes it very difficult to beat. An exaggerated example would be the Bergmeister(Porsche)-Magnussen(Vette) scrape. Once in the lead; a rear engined car that can out brake you, kill your corner entry speed and your momentum, then rocket away with greater mid-corner to track-out traction, just to do it all again at the next corner, has got to be a frustrating handful for the mid-engined car driver.

I would love to see Porsche put the designs on equal footing and head to head. Let the better race platform prevail...