Priced BETWEEN 911 and 911S????
06-09-2005, 02:51 PM
#91
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Originally Posted by Cupcar
The management of PCNA is more to blame for any peformance deficiencies we have here in the USA, not the management of Porsche AG.
Porsche AG builds whatever PCNA thinks it can sell and PCNA does not see the performance market as being worth the time and effort, it is easier to sell to those who really want a car for it's looks and status, period.
Even delete options for options that are USA standard but optional in Europe are not too successful in the USA- look how few cars are ordered with the suntop delete option? There are other option deletes that would be possible to make a simpler more sporting vechicle as available in Europe.
Another good example of PCNA witholding performance is the sports suspension currently available in Europe on the 997 that includes a limited slip differential, apparently PCNA does not think this is worth offering.
The past is littered with examples of cars not imported to the USA. The 2.7 RS, the 964 RS, the 993 RS, the GT3 Mk1, GT3 RS, etc. Usually the simple answer is "USA emissions and safety requirements" kept the car out.
After PCNA imported the 45 Carrera Cup cars that were really a European RS with USA equipment added, I asked PCNA CEO Fred Schwab directly why he didn't bring in the 964 European RS over in the first place and he said "I didn't think I could sell enough of them".
Anyway the real problem is US we are the performance market and we don't exist in large enough numbers for PCNA to pander too, we never have and unfortunately probably never will.
Porsche AG builds whatever PCNA thinks it can sell and PCNA does not see the performance market as being worth the time and effort, it is easier to sell to those who really want a car for it's looks and status, period.
Even delete options for options that are USA standard but optional in Europe are not too successful in the USA- look how few cars are ordered with the suntop delete option? There are other option deletes that would be possible to make a simpler more sporting vechicle as available in Europe.
Another good example of PCNA witholding performance is the sports suspension currently available in Europe on the 997 that includes a limited slip differential, apparently PCNA does not think this is worth offering.
The past is littered with examples of cars not imported to the USA. The 2.7 RS, the 964 RS, the 993 RS, the GT3 Mk1, GT3 RS, etc. Usually the simple answer is "USA emissions and safety requirements" kept the car out.
After PCNA imported the 45 Carrera Cup cars that were really a European RS with USA equipment added, I asked PCNA CEO Fred Schwab directly why he didn't bring in the 964 European RS over in the first place and he said "I didn't think I could sell enough of them".
Anyway the real problem is US we are the performance market and we don't exist in large enough numbers for PCNA to pander too, we never have and unfortunately probably never will.
Yes it's true that Porsche would be in a world of hurt if they only sold cars that appealed to 2% of the market........that's how they got into trouble in the late 80's and 90's. They seem to have a very nice formula now (like it or not).......sell a variety of high performance offerings and have a true race car in the GT3 for the small group of people that want one. Porsche could easily build a lightweight Cayman with a much bigger dry sump engine, state of the art brakes and suspension.......but would it be a huge success?........yes, to a very small group of people......profitable?......most likely not. So why do it?......race headlines?......urban legends? Porsche is doing better than ever now being out of racing and actually selling cars instead. Should they change it for a very small group of individuals?
We live in the age of financial results.......not un-profitable adventures......and Porsche really knows how to excel in this area. Some other makers haven't learned this yet and will be going down for the count if not careful.
06-09-2005, 03:11 PM
#92
Rennlist Member
A Porsche in any guise is a high performance model, it is just that the highest performing Porsche models have traditionally not come to the USA. These are usually simplified, bare bones cars that sell in Europe and elsewhere in what Porsche calls the ROW (Rest Of World) market but have not been considered effective market offerings in the USA by PCNA (or VW of America, the past importer of Porsche). Also, my point was that many standard items for the USA market are specified by PCNA that are options in Europe and that PCNA could offer more to the less luxury oriented customer.
As for financial success, and Porsches excellence in this area, I wonder how the Euro is going to play out for Porsche. They have hedged the Euro vs the dollar to their advantage for some years. These contracts come due in mid 2007 (see Barron's July 12, 2004). If the Euro is still strong and Porsche cannot renegotiate contracts in their favor, the price of Porsche cars is going up and will they sell at that price? Or, can Porsche afford to take the cut in margin required to sell them. It will be interesting....the market is the market is the market.
As for financial success, and Porsches excellence in this area, I wonder how the Euro is going to play out for Porsche. They have hedged the Euro vs the dollar to their advantage for some years. These contracts come due in mid 2007 (see Barron's July 12, 2004). If the Euro is still strong and Porsche cannot renegotiate contracts in their favor, the price of Porsche cars is going up and will they sell at that price? Or, can Porsche afford to take the cut in margin required to sell them. It will be interesting....the market is the market is the market.
06-09-2005, 03:57 PM
#93
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Originally Posted by Cupcar
As for financial success, and Porsches excellence in this area, I wonder how the Euro is going to play out for Porsche. They have hedged the Euro vs the dollar to their advantage for some years. These contracts come due in mid 2007 (see Barron's July 12, 2004). If the Euro is still strong and Porsche cannot renegotiate contracts in their favor, the price of Porsche cars is going up and will they sell at that price? Or, can Porsche afford to take the cut in margin required to sell them. It will be interesting....the market is the market is the market.
06-09-2005, 04:08 PM
#94
Rennlist Member
Given the relative difficulties rebuilding the 996/986 wet sump engine ( along with it's RMS issues)and the non-serviceable gearbox of these cars, I wonder where the ultimate used market will end up for them anyway.
At least Porsche has more margin than BMW to play with, but needs to build sales volume and market share- hence the plan for a 4 door sedan. Times are changing arn't they!!!
At least Porsche has more margin than BMW to play with, but needs to build sales volume and market share- hence the plan for a 4 door sedan. Times are changing arn't they!!!
06-09-2005, 04:51 PM
#95
Race Director
People like me are part of the problem cupcar talks about.
I would love a low priced stripped out boxster coupe. Put in the standard 2.7L motor, pull out the fancy options to save weight and cost. Figure 225 hp in a 2500 lbs mid engine body with modern suspension.... All at 32k? Yeah baby!
But... the problem is that I am not in a position to buy one even it were made. Why?
I have other expenses needs that prevent me from doing so. Wife needs a car, I need a car and wife want it to be family friendly (hence 530i,ok i could have gotten cheaper, but for me an 80 mile daily commute is tough in sh!tbox ). So that leaves me with 951 & 944 race car. The race car is race car and special in that respect. The 951 is nice albiet old car. Not really much room for 3rd road car at 32k that can't double as family car or a GT car.
Plus did I tell you how much I really like my 944 Turbo S on the road! Nice car even at 124k miles.
So even though I would love one and would love porsche to produce one... I still stay with my USED 944 Turbo S. Yep I go that car used 8 years ago.
Simple fact is there are many of us who very vocally want pure sports cars. Few however that want such a car and willing to part with even 40k to get one. For some they just don't have the $$$ not matter what they do and they would do alot. For other it is not so much the money, but being able to allocate that much to soming so focused.
In the end Porsche's hertiage lives through guys like use that take the cars New OR used and drive them hard and enjoy them. Those of use who track their cars keep the Porsche brand something special. This way when some Guy buys a Boxster or 996 / 997 he can assocaite with all of hardcore folks while sipping his latte on the way to work.
Maybe Porsche should do what Jeep has done. (not that jeep has similar brand heritage. only small percent really off road their jeeps, yet every one that has one feels an association to that rough off road heritage) Maybe stick a "Track Rated" badge on the side just like Jeep's "Trail Rated" badge. Now all you need to pass the "Track Rated" badge is complete on lap of the ring in under 10 min. Yep then you can all it "Track Rated" (just don't mention if the car could even start another lap)
I would love a low priced stripped out boxster coupe. Put in the standard 2.7L motor, pull out the fancy options to save weight and cost. Figure 225 hp in a 2500 lbs mid engine body with modern suspension.... All at 32k? Yeah baby!
But... the problem is that I am not in a position to buy one even it were made. Why?
I have other expenses needs that prevent me from doing so. Wife needs a car, I need a car and wife want it to be family friendly (hence 530i,ok i could have gotten cheaper, but for me an 80 mile daily commute is tough in sh!tbox ). So that leaves me with 951 & 944 race car. The race car is race car and special in that respect. The 951 is nice albiet old car. Not really much room for 3rd road car at 32k that can't double as family car or a GT car.
Plus did I tell you how much I really like my 944 Turbo S on the road! Nice car even at 124k miles.So even though I would love one and would love porsche to produce one... I still stay with my USED 944 Turbo S. Yep I go that car used 8 years ago.
Simple fact is there are many of us who very vocally want pure sports cars. Few however that want such a car and willing to part with even 40k to get one. For some they just don't have the $$$ not matter what they do and they would do alot. For other it is not so much the money, but being able to allocate that much to soming so focused.
In the end Porsche's hertiage lives through guys like use that take the cars New OR used and drive them hard and enjoy them. Those of use who track their cars keep the Porsche brand something special. This way when some Guy buys a Boxster or 996 / 997 he can assocaite with all of hardcore folks while sipping his latte on the way to work.
Maybe Porsche should do what Jeep has done. (not that jeep has similar brand heritage. only small percent really off road their jeeps, yet every one that has one feels an association to that rough off road heritage) Maybe stick a "Track Rated" badge on the side just like Jeep's "Trail Rated" badge. Now all you need to pass the "Track Rated" badge is complete on lap of the ring in under 10 min. Yep then you can all it "Track Rated" (just don't mention if the car could even start another lap)
06-09-2005, 04:59 PM
#96
Race Director
Originally Posted by M758
Figure 225 hp in a 2500 lbs mid engine body with modern suspension.... All at 32k? Yeah baby!
Hmm,
Thinking a bit more... Ahh if they really did do it... Hmm,
944 Turbo S = 10k? 944-spec = 10k? So that is 20k? I'd just need find another 12k.... Sell of the BMW for a Sh!tbox??
06-09-2005, 06:29 PM
#97
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First time poster, many year reader.
We must remember not to forget that the US/Canada market is not the world. From yearly trips to Germany and talking to friends over there, the problem is that BMW and Mercedes have moved into Porsche's market. Alot of "older" Porsche customers really want a good GT, something like the old 928GTS but with a 911 logo. I have always said that if the 928 had been sold by someone other than Porsche it would have been a hit.
A friend who used to own a 993 4S complained that if it was raining hard on the autobahn you were constantly getting passed even at reasonable speeds. And if I recall my old 86 Carrera, there definetly was alot more concentration than in a BMW or Mercedes at the same speed and conditions. SO to make a long story short, people say they want a sports car but most want a GT, witness all the options ordered as well as available today.
There is a diehard group of customers who want a no frills car and these are the people who keep the cars for a long time (longer than a lease)., but these are not your bread and butter customers. Porsche AG has realized this and hence we have the Cayenne and 996 engines. Great cars but unfortunately for us diehards, the marketers and not the engineers are in control.
The question is as Porsche moves further to an MB and BMW product, what makes their product different? A 997 and 987 probably cost the same to manufaturer, so the market dictates the price. Now with the strength of Euro, the pricing pressure is getting hard for the US. Maybe one should look at this way. The Boxster is a steal, the Cayman is the correct pricing and the 997 is overpriced.
Greetings
AJ
We must remember not to forget that the US/Canada market is not the world. From yearly trips to Germany and talking to friends over there, the problem is that BMW and Mercedes have moved into Porsche's market. Alot of "older" Porsche customers really want a good GT, something like the old 928GTS but with a 911 logo. I have always said that if the 928 had been sold by someone other than Porsche it would have been a hit.
A friend who used to own a 993 4S complained that if it was raining hard on the autobahn you were constantly getting passed even at reasonable speeds. And if I recall my old 86 Carrera, there definetly was alot more concentration than in a BMW or Mercedes at the same speed and conditions. SO to make a long story short, people say they want a sports car but most want a GT, witness all the options ordered as well as available today.
There is a diehard group of customers who want a no frills car and these are the people who keep the cars for a long time (longer than a lease)., but these are not your bread and butter customers. Porsche AG has realized this and hence we have the Cayenne and 996 engines. Great cars but unfortunately for us diehards, the marketers and not the engineers are in control.
The question is as Porsche moves further to an MB and BMW product, what makes their product different? A 997 and 987 probably cost the same to manufaturer, so the market dictates the price. Now with the strength of Euro, the pricing pressure is getting hard for the US. Maybe one should look at this way. The Boxster is a steal, the Cayman is the correct pricing and the 997 is overpriced.
Greetings
AJ
