Expect new engine?! What!? 981 GTS
10-17-2017, 02:01 PM
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Expect new engine?! What!? 981 GTS
This was also posted on reddit, if you want to see it there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Porsche/com...w_engine_what/
Bought a brand new Cayman GTS, 2016, during fall. Drove it as much as I can during winter when there are absolutely no snow or salt (but still freezing temperatures). I drive to work, short trips about 13km. Currently the car has 13 thousand KM.
I noticed the engine is consuming engine oil somewhat faster pace. I had it topped off by the dealership 3 times already, pretty much once every 3 thousand KM (so the 4th time is closing soon, but will be a full oil change instead).
My service advisor used to be a Porsche engineer. He says I am killing my car's engine because I do not do much spirited driving, and the short distance mean that I'm mostly driving the engine while it is cold, or just warmed up. He tells me its as if you wake up an athlete 5am in the morning, slap him in the face, make him warm up and run a little bit, but don't let him sprint for a long duration and put him back into sleep. Especially worse since I'm breaking in my engine during winter (although I heard that doesn't matter. The car is kept in garage, not heated, but still significantly higher temperature than outdoor).
I would love to do even more spirited driving if I had time, but life happens (not that I don't go on spirited drives, but definitely less than the average Joe, maybe once a month rather than once a week).
What scares me more is he tells me that he will not be surprised to see metal scrapings from the engine, AND that I may have to expect a new engine.... now I'm assuming the engine wouldn't break that easily, so it will be likely out of my 4 year warranty..
what do you guys think? Cayman GTS has a 3.4 litre engine.
PS: I never drive my car hard when cold. I just leave it on normal mode, and at most rev up to 3k rpm (rare) for city driving. When everything is completely up to temperature, I give it a swing if roads allow.
double PS: this is a 981 Cayman GTS, with the 3.4 flat 6 engine
Anything particular I should do for winter storing? Last year I pretty much just left it in the unheated garage (again, still warmer than outdoors by far, maybe around 0 Celsius, sometimes higher sometimes lower.) and drove it when the roads are clear of salt and snow for about 1 hour every week if I can or sometimes less depending on weather.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Porsche/com...w_engine_what/
Bought a brand new Cayman GTS, 2016, during fall. Drove it as much as I can during winter when there are absolutely no snow or salt (but still freezing temperatures). I drive to work, short trips about 13km. Currently the car has 13 thousand KM.
I noticed the engine is consuming engine oil somewhat faster pace. I had it topped off by the dealership 3 times already, pretty much once every 3 thousand KM (so the 4th time is closing soon, but will be a full oil change instead).
My service advisor used to be a Porsche engineer. He says I am killing my car's engine because I do not do much spirited driving, and the short distance mean that I'm mostly driving the engine while it is cold, or just warmed up. He tells me its as if you wake up an athlete 5am in the morning, slap him in the face, make him warm up and run a little bit, but don't let him sprint for a long duration and put him back into sleep. Especially worse since I'm breaking in my engine during winter (although I heard that doesn't matter. The car is kept in garage, not heated, but still significantly higher temperature than outdoor).
I would love to do even more spirited driving if I had time, but life happens (not that I don't go on spirited drives, but definitely less than the average Joe, maybe once a month rather than once a week).
What scares me more is he tells me that he will not be surprised to see metal scrapings from the engine, AND that I may have to expect a new engine.... now I'm assuming the engine wouldn't break that easily, so it will be likely out of my 4 year warranty..
what do you guys think? Cayman GTS has a 3.4 litre engine.
PS: I never drive my car hard when cold. I just leave it on normal mode, and at most rev up to 3k rpm (rare) for city driving. When everything is completely up to temperature, I give it a swing if roads allow.
double PS: this is a 981 Cayman GTS, with the 3.4 flat 6 engine
Anything particular I should do for winter storing? Last year I pretty much just left it in the unheated garage (again, still warmer than outdoors by far, maybe around 0 Celsius, sometimes higher sometimes lower.) and drove it when the roads are clear of salt and snow for about 1 hour every week if I can or sometimes less depending on weather.
10-17-2017, 02:19 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
While I agree with the fact that it helps to not do short trips, 13000km is barely anything for the engine to be burning oil that much. I think your SA is also slightly over-exaggerating.
Request an oil sample from when they change the oil and have it sent off to Blackstone Labs for an analysis (and do this from now on) to get real answers on whats in your oil.
I daily drive my car 24km each way (is your 13km round trip? or one-way?), and my car is generally warmed up in about 10 minutes of driving. I also barely get much above 4000rpm on a daily basis (I usually rev it out once a day, but never get to keep it there
).
tl;dr:
S.A. is probably over-exaggerating
Send in oil sample for analysis if you're really worried
Try to get it looked at under warranty (leave any talk of "how you drive it" out of the discussion)
(owner's manual does state that burning an amount of oil can be normal - I disagree but they have it in the owner's manual)
Request an oil sample from when they change the oil and have it sent off to Blackstone Labs for an analysis (and do this from now on) to get real answers on whats in your oil.
I daily drive my car 24km each way (is your 13km round trip? or one-way?), and my car is generally warmed up in about 10 minutes of driving. I also barely get much above 4000rpm on a daily basis (I usually rev it out once a day, but never get to keep it there
).tl;dr:
S.A. is probably over-exaggerating
Send in oil sample for analysis if you're really worried
Try to get it looked at under warranty (leave any talk of "how you drive it" out of the discussion)
(owner's manual does state that burning an amount of oil can be normal - I disagree but they have it in the owner's manual)
10-17-2017, 02:26 PM
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They tell me even 800km per top off is still within normal ranges during engine break in period. I think that is way excessive and pure horse crap, but obviously my consumption is still much better, so I guess in the grey zone of "yea this might be a problem, or might just be completely normal".
I think I will get the to check the oil during oil change. Are you suggesting to analyze it through a 3rd party source rather than the dealer (just in case they do some shady things, although this dealer is quiet big and reputable in my area with multiple brands).
I think I will get the to check the oil during oil change. Are you suggesting to analyze it through a 3rd party source rather than the dealer (just in case they do some shady things, although this dealer is quiet big and reputable in my area with multiple brands).
10-17-2017, 05:46 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
You're way past the "break-in" period. You only say "top off". How much oil is that?? I think "normal" oil usage is somewhere up to 1 quart (liter?) every 1.5k miles (2.5k klicks? ). The worst kind of driving you can do for any engine is to keep it at low RPM for a short distance and not getting up to full operating temp - both oil and water. Your engine won't break as such. It will however wear out prematurely - probably beyond the warranty period. As suggested, you should send a sample of your used oil to Blackstone Labs for analysis.
10-17-2017, 08:02 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
I call bull$hit.
From your post, nothing you've done is causing this issue. Something is is wrong, but it's not from treating the car like a baby. If you followed proper break in procedure, then this is on Porsche.
While it is generally considered a good idea to get the oil fully warmed up, as often as you've been getting topped up it's not the oil that's the problem.
Increased high RPM driving shortens service life - not the other way around. It is true Porsche engines usually have a higher tolerance for spirited driving, but in this case I'd be seeking another dealer, preferably one who doesn't make analogies and comparisons to highly fit human beings. That is just silly.
It's a machine -- not an organism.
From your post, nothing you've done is causing this issue. Something is is wrong, but it's not from treating the car like a baby. If you followed proper break in procedure, then this is on Porsche.
While it is generally considered a good idea to get the oil fully warmed up, as often as you've been getting topped up it's not the oil that's the problem.
Increased high RPM driving shortens service life - not the other way around. It is true Porsche engines usually have a higher tolerance for spirited driving, but in this case I'd be seeking another dealer, preferably one who doesn't make analogies and comparisons to highly fit human beings. That is just silly.
It's a machine -- not an organism.
10-17-2017, 09:06 PM
#7
Race Director
This was also posted on reddit, if you want to see it there:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Porsche/com...w_engine_what/
Bought a brand new Cayman GTS, 2016, during fall. Drove it as much as I can during winter when there are absolutely no snow or salt (but still freezing temperatures). I drive to work, short trips about 13km. Currently the car has 13 thousand KM.
I noticed the engine is consuming engine oil somewhat faster pace. I had it topped off by the dealership 3 times already, pretty much once every 3 thousand KM (so the 4th time is closing soon, but will be a full oil change instead).
My service advisor used to be a Porsche engineer. He says I am killing my car's engine because I do not do much spirited driving, and the short distance mean that I'm mostly driving the engine while it is cold, or just warmed up. He tells me its as if you wake up an athlete 5am in the morning, slap him in the face, make him warm up and run a little bit, but don't let him sprint for a long duration and put him back into sleep. Especially worse since I'm breaking in my engine during winter (although I heard that doesn't matter. The car is kept in garage, not heated, but still significantly higher temperature than outdoor).
I would love to do even more spirited driving if I had time, but life happens (not that I don't go on spirited drives, but definitely less than the average Joe, maybe once a month rather than once a week).
What scares me more is he tells me that he will not be surprised to see metal scrapings from the engine, AND that I may have to expect a new engine.... now I'm assuming the engine wouldn't break that easily, so it will be likely out of my 4 year warranty..
what do you guys think? Cayman GTS has a 3.4 litre engine.
PS: I never drive my car hard when cold. I just leave it on normal mode, and at most rev up to 3k rpm (rare) for city driving. When everything is completely up to temperature, I give it a swing if roads allow.
double PS: this is a 981 Cayman GTS, with the 3.4 flat 6 engine
Anything particular I should do for winter storing? Last year I pretty much just left it in the unheated garage (again, still warmer than outdoors by far, maybe around 0 Celsius, sometimes higher sometimes lower.) and drove it when the roads are clear of salt and snow for about 1 hour every week if I can or sometimes less depending on weather.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Porsche/com...w_engine_what/
Bought a brand new Cayman GTS, 2016, during fall. Drove it as much as I can during winter when there are absolutely no snow or salt (but still freezing temperatures). I drive to work, short trips about 13km. Currently the car has 13 thousand KM.
I noticed the engine is consuming engine oil somewhat faster pace. I had it topped off by the dealership 3 times already, pretty much once every 3 thousand KM (so the 4th time is closing soon, but will be a full oil change instead).
My service advisor used to be a Porsche engineer. He says I am killing my car's engine because I do not do much spirited driving, and the short distance mean that I'm mostly driving the engine while it is cold, or just warmed up. He tells me its as if you wake up an athlete 5am in the morning, slap him in the face, make him warm up and run a little bit, but don't let him sprint for a long duration and put him back into sleep. Especially worse since I'm breaking in my engine during winter (although I heard that doesn't matter. The car is kept in garage, not heated, but still significantly higher temperature than outdoor).
I would love to do even more spirited driving if I had time, but life happens (not that I don't go on spirited drives, but definitely less than the average Joe, maybe once a month rather than once a week).
What scares me more is he tells me that he will not be surprised to see metal scrapings from the engine, AND that I may have to expect a new engine.... now I'm assuming the engine wouldn't break that easily, so it will be likely out of my 4 year warranty..
what do you guys think? Cayman GTS has a 3.4 litre engine.
PS: I never drive my car hard when cold. I just leave it on normal mode, and at most rev up to 3k rpm (rare) for city driving. When everything is completely up to temperature, I give it a swing if roads allow.
double PS: this is a 981 Cayman GTS, with the 3.4 flat 6 engine
Anything particular I should do for winter storing? Last year I pretty much just left it in the unheated garage (again, still warmer than outdoors by far, maybe around 0 Celsius, sometimes higher sometimes lower.) and drove it when the roads are clear of salt and snow for about 1 hour every week if I can or sometimes less depending on weather.
My experience with winter driving is the engine never gets really hot -- by "hot" the engine (coolant) gets hot enough to cause the radiator fans to come on which happens probably when the coolant reaches 212F degrees -- and water -- a normal by-product of combustion -- accumulates at a ferocious rate in the oil. The only way to get rid of this water is to drain the oil and replace it with fresh oil and change the filter too.
So the engine should start the winter driving season with fresh oil and a new filter and after winter is over and the summer season is upon you the engine should have the "winter" oil drained and replaced with fresh oil. and the filter replaced. You can use the same oil in summer as in winter.
Having to add some oil every 3000km is not anything to worry about. When it gets to the point, if it gets to the point, you are having to add one liter every 1000km that's time to worry. Well, not worry but at least do a disciplined oil consumption "test".
Based on my experience I'd hazard a guess more oil is being "burned" because of an inefficient AOS rather than being burned because the oil is making it past the rings or the valve stem/guide and seals.
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10-18-2017, 01:38 PM
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Hey guys! Just a few random extra info (in no particular order or importance)
-Some of the 'boys' mechanics that work there may have topped off the oil incorrectly the first time (not sure what that mean).
-my engine does reach at minimum 90 Celsius during my daily commute if not 100 Celsius (so it definitely warms up for sure)
-they did not even keep record of my 1st top off. The dealership is often so busy it feels impossible to get anyone's attention sometimes. I made sure to get a receipt and record things digitally on their system the 2nd time around and the service advisor I think issued a consumption test (looks like they just topped off the oil, and want me to go back to see how much is used over how much distance traveled?)
-the second closest reputable dealership is very far away, but recently a new one opened by Porsche themselves just opened, so I will drop by there.
- I'm not a mechanic any means, so all the oil is done by the dealership, I have no clue what they use, but I hear its Mobile 1?
-I do not necessarily treat my car like a baby, I still step on it and blow through at most, roughly 3 gears (thats usually as far as roads can allow in my area), and I do take it on spirited drive, maybe not so consistent like once every week, but at least twice a month or more if I can (unless thats considered treating it like a baby, but I feel like it should at least be enough for making it 'exercise'?)
Should I continue with the advisor from this dealership that issued the consumption test?
or simply try the new dealership that opened, whom is actually owned by Porsche.
Also im not quiet sure what Blackstone Labs is (not a very deep enthusiast clearly)
Do they analyze oil or something of the sort?
-Some of the 'boys' mechanics that work there may have topped off the oil incorrectly the first time (not sure what that mean).
-my engine does reach at minimum 90 Celsius during my daily commute if not 100 Celsius (so it definitely warms up for sure)
-they did not even keep record of my 1st top off. The dealership is often so busy it feels impossible to get anyone's attention sometimes. I made sure to get a receipt and record things digitally on their system the 2nd time around and the service advisor I think issued a consumption test (looks like they just topped off the oil, and want me to go back to see how much is used over how much distance traveled?)
-the second closest reputable dealership is very far away, but recently a new one opened by Porsche themselves just opened, so I will drop by there.
- I'm not a mechanic any means, so all the oil is done by the dealership, I have no clue what they use, but I hear its Mobile 1?
-I do not necessarily treat my car like a baby, I still step on it and blow through at most, roughly 3 gears (thats usually as far as roads can allow in my area), and I do take it on spirited drive, maybe not so consistent like once every week, but at least twice a month or more if I can (unless thats considered treating it like a baby, but I feel like it should at least be enough for making it 'exercise'?)
Should I continue with the advisor from this dealership that issued the consumption test?
or simply try the new dealership that opened, whom is actually owned by Porsche.
Also im not quiet sure what Blackstone Labs is (not a very deep enthusiast clearly)
Do they analyze oil or something of the sort?
Last edited by zordinary; 10-18-2017 at 02:08 PM.
10-19-2017, 12:08 PM
#9
Race Director
Hey guys! Just a few random extra info (in no particular order or importance)
-Some of the 'boys' mechanics that work there may have topped off the oil incorrectly the first time (not sure what that mean).
-my engine does reach at minimum 90 Celsius during my daily commute if not 100 Celsius (so it definitely warms up for sure)
-they did not even keep record of my 1st top off. The dealership is often so busy it feels impossible to get anyone's attention sometimes. I made sure to get a receipt and record things digitally on their system the 2nd time around and the service advisor I think issued a consumption test (looks like they just topped off the oil, and want me to go back to see how much is used over how much distance traveled?)
-the second closest reputable dealership is very far away, but recently a new one opened by Porsche themselves just opened, so I will drop by there.
- I'm not a mechanic any means, so all the oil is done by the dealership, I have no clue what they use, but I hear its Mobile 1?
-I do not necessarily treat my car like a baby, I still step on it and blow through at most, roughly 3 gears (thats usually as far as roads can allow in my area), and I do take it on spirited drive, maybe not so consistent like once every week, but at least twice a month or more if I can (unless thats considered treating it like a baby, but I feel like it should at least be enough for making it 'exercise'?)
Should I continue with the advisor from this dealership that issued the consumption test?
or simply try the new dealership that opened, whom is actually owned by Porsche.
Also im not quiet sure what Blackstone Labs is (not a very deep enthusiast clearly)
Do they analyze oil or something of the sort?
-Some of the 'boys' mechanics that work there may have topped off the oil incorrectly the first time (not sure what that mean).
-my engine does reach at minimum 90 Celsius during my daily commute if not 100 Celsius (so it definitely warms up for sure)
-they did not even keep record of my 1st top off. The dealership is often so busy it feels impossible to get anyone's attention sometimes. I made sure to get a receipt and record things digitally on their system the 2nd time around and the service advisor I think issued a consumption test (looks like they just topped off the oil, and want me to go back to see how much is used over how much distance traveled?)
-the second closest reputable dealership is very far away, but recently a new one opened by Porsche themselves just opened, so I will drop by there.
- I'm not a mechanic any means, so all the oil is done by the dealership, I have no clue what they use, but I hear its Mobile 1?
-I do not necessarily treat my car like a baby, I still step on it and blow through at most, roughly 3 gears (thats usually as far as roads can allow in my area), and I do take it on spirited drive, maybe not so consistent like once every week, but at least twice a month or more if I can (unless thats considered treating it like a baby, but I feel like it should at least be enough for making it 'exercise'?)
Should I continue with the advisor from this dealership that issued the consumption test?
or simply try the new dealership that opened, whom is actually owned by Porsche.
Also im not quiet sure what Blackstone Labs is (not a very deep enthusiast clearly)
Do they analyze oil or something of the sort?
It is at oil change time the electronic oil level is confirmed to be working right. The oil is drained following a documented Porsche process. Engine up to some temperature; oil drain time of 1 hour (DFI engines); then a measured amount of oil is added to the engine. "Measured" in that the oil dispensing nozzle has a read out that shows how much oil was dispensed. The tech then puts in the factory specified amount of oil and confirms -- should confirm -- the dash level reading shows the expected oil level.
My general advice is use the dealer you feel most comfortable with and that consistently does a good service job.
However, if there is some "consumption" test in progress then you should follow through. Observe how the level is checked. You want to be consistent in how you check the oil level so you get consistent and accurate readings.
Blackstone can anaylze oil. I've never used Blackstone. The time I wanted the oil analyzed in my then nearly new 2002 Boxster (with about 4K miles on the car) I took the car to a local truck stop which had an oil analysis machine on site. The truck mechanic managed to snake a small diameter nylon tube down the dipstick tube and pull enough oil out of the sump to analyze. The small tube would not reach the oil sump when he tried feeding it down the oil filler tube.
Another way is when the oil is changed to after the drain plug is removed to wait a moment or two after the oil starts to flow and then capture some oil "mid-stream". You don't want the first oil that flows out the drain hole nor the last, the dregs, but what's in the middle.
Another way, but I diin't like this way, is to remove the oil filter housing and pour some oil out for sampling. The problem is I do not like to then install the housing with the old filter and without changing/replacing the various o-rings with new ones. So this means one has to have a new filter element, and whatever o-rings/seals should be replaced when the filter housing is removed. Then the housing is cleaned and the new o-rings fitted and the element inserted and the housing filled with fresh oil and installed and properly torqued down. This is a lot of trouble and expense for an oil analysis.
If an oil analysis is really desired I think just change the oil and during the oil change capture a suitable sample of oil for analysis.
I would advise you to *not* try to use oil analysis as some way of extending the oil change interval. I'm not a fan of waiting until the oil starts to show traces of metals due to wear before changing the oil.
What I found with the one analysis I had done was the oil was full -- well, around 7% full -- of water. This was due to the fact the engine takes a long time to get warm and in that area -- KC MO -- and at that time of the year -- winter -- the engine just didn't get very warm.
The real benefit I received from this oil analysis was the decision to *not* follow the factory oil change interval (of believe it or not 15K miles; with a filter change only every 30K miles!) but instead to change the oil ASAP (at 4K miles) and then every 5K mles thereafter.
That was sometime back in early 2002, probably sometime in March. I had purchased the car new in Jan. of 2002. So from then on the engine got 5K mile oil/filter services.
Here is it now Oct. 19, 2017 and the car is 15 years and 10 months old, to the day. I bought the car Jan. 19, 2002 and with over 315K miles on the car and of course the engine.
The engine still runs great and maybe oil consumption is up a bit -- though I have to point out the engine is also on its 3rd AOS and this oll consumption might (might) be due to the variation in efficiency in removing oll vapor between AOS's -- but the oil consumption is still well within acceptable levels and the engine in no way shows its age or miles.
10-19-2017, 10:52 PM
#10
I have no clue what they use, but I hear its Mobile 1?]
10-28-2017, 07:52 PM
#11
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Hey Bill. They do document it down if its a oil change. But it seems they do not do so unless requested for oil top offs. I have not had my first oil change yet. It is coming up soon!
