Winter tires!
10-20-2012, 10:28 PM
#16
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the opinions guys!
I do live in a severe winter area, and over here a "mountain/snowflake symbol" dedicated winter tire is THE LAW!
For the Nokian fans, I had studded Hakkapeliittas on my 2000 3-series ... they were amazing on snow and ice, but the "rat tat tat" noise drove me crazy ... to the point where I grabbed some vice-grips and pliers and ripped the studs (those that remained) out! Tires were still good after that, and still a bit noisy. I think I am ok trading a little bit of severe whether performance, for a quieter better handling tire.
I do live in a severe winter area, and over here a "mountain/snowflake symbol" dedicated winter tire is THE LAW!
For the Nokian fans, I had studded Hakkapeliittas on my 2000 3-series ... they were amazing on snow and ice, but the "rat tat tat" noise drove me crazy ... to the point where I grabbed some vice-grips and pliers and ripped the studs (those that remained) out! Tires were still good after that, and still a bit noisy. I think I am ok trading a little bit of severe whether performance, for a quieter better handling tire.
Last edited by steve_Cayenne; 10-20-2012 at 10:59 PM.
10-20-2012, 10:51 PM
#17
Racer
Thread Starter
Dunlop Wintersport 3D's! Read good things on Consumer Reports for these. We are in Canadian Prairies - get snow, ice, snow storms but also just cold roads which are dry. Consumer Reports rates them as average for ice braking. We'll see. May be good enough for me to forget about a change/upgrade to Scorp Winters. Truth be told, I can't find any professional or other review on these so can't say they're validated yet as a definitely superior alternative.
I have the Wintersport 3D's on my other car, they are good tires, you will be fine and most probably not worth the bother and any significant expense to move to the Scorpion Winter for you.
In my case, same price and bother from the local tire shop
As for the validation that the Scorpion Winter is superior, I could only find info that appears Pirelli sourced:
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/su...NTER%26use%3D1
The Scorpion Winter was rated highest overall in terms of braking, handling, traction in snow conditions, compared with its main competitors. Test conducted by TÜV SÜD Automotive (Report No. 76247759PQ-01) in February/March 2012 on 255/55R18 109 V M+S. Tires available and purchased in the European market in January 2012. Test vehicle Audi Q5. Snow test location: Arctic Falls (SE).
http://www.pneurama.com/en/rivista_a.../Tires?ID=6940
It was an occasion for convincing impressions of the Scorpion Winter tyre that replaces its predecessor, Scorpion Ice&Snow … In effect, the comparative data represented by the customary web chart (and the relevant 255/55 R18 size) show a really considerable leap in performance. Moreover, the two products are separated by a decade. “For braking on snow from 50 km/h to zero, the distance has been reduced by 10%, whereas traction capacity measured between 10 and 40 km/h has increased by 9%; for dry (from 100 km/h to 0) and wet braking (from 80 km/h to 0), the improvement is 1.7 and 2.5 metres, respectively. Internal and external noise has also been reduced (3 db lower than its predecessor) in addition to rolling resistance that can guarantee up to 4% more fuel efficiency.” According to the plate data, dry and wet handling and control have also been significantly improved, but it is handling on snow that has benefitted the most from the development process -* 13% better than the previous model’s performance. The tyre seems to be well balanced in relation to the different conditions of use and performance, from traction on corners to grip on slopes and when braking. ... The new tyre is being homologated by Porsche and Mercedes and will be sold in the autumn in 28 sizes from 16” to 21” and in a runflat version.
As for that German testing company, who tested them in Sweden to be the best tire out there ... well I could not find the actual report anywhere, including on their site:
http://www.tuev-sued.de/home_en
10-21-2012, 11:51 AM
#18
Thanks, Steve! Great detailed post, as per your usual.
Re. the Dunlop Wintersport 3D's I'm confident as well that they'll be fine - we'll see Wed, supposed to be hovering around freezing with precipitation as well, should be a good workout for them. Bit of a colder than usual snap here so am getting them on in some haste, although the all-season Scorpion Verdes will buy me a bit more time here than summer performance tires would have
When I was looking around on Tire Rack FAQ's they described a suggested break-in period for new tires as there is some kind of lubricant or chemical treatment that has to be applied to allow them to be popped out of the molds. I guess it's a bit of a heads up to not expect maximum grip/performance right from the get go. Never thought about this, though likely not so important in daily driving.
Also, looks like the Scorpion Winters, while improved, appear incrementally so - thanks for the info!
Re. the Dunlop Wintersport 3D's I'm confident as well that they'll be fine - we'll see Wed, supposed to be hovering around freezing with precipitation as well, should be a good workout for them. Bit of a colder than usual snap here so am getting them on in some haste, although the all-season Scorpion Verdes will buy me a bit more time here than summer performance tires would have
When I was looking around on Tire Rack FAQ's they described a suggested break-in period for new tires as there is some kind of lubricant or chemical treatment that has to be applied to allow them to be popped out of the molds. I guess it's a bit of a heads up to not expect maximum grip/performance right from the get go. Never thought about this, though likely not so important in daily driving.
Also, looks like the Scorpion Winters, while improved, appear incrementally so - thanks for the info!
10-21-2012, 01:57 PM
#19
Drifting
Well what do you know. It snowed last night. 6-7". Still snowing lightly and looks like it will continue on and off for the foreseeable future. I think winter is pretty much here for the duration. So it was time to put on the winters. I bought the pig with a set of blizzak DM V1 on wheels so just changed em. It will be interesting to compare how the pig handles the snow compared to my landcruiser. The cruiser has 315 75 R16 Yokohama ITs and is a true beast in the winter. Some comparison pics for fun. Similar yet different.
Last edited by mtnrat; 01-02-2015 at 04:38 PM.
10-22-2012, 10:12 PM
#20
Drifting
I have been thinking about the width of tire vs snow and ice traction. Conventional wisdom is a narrow tire puts more weight per sq in on the ground and grips the ground better. All I have is 40 years of anecdotal evidence. I am beginning to believe that too much weight per sq. in. is as detrimental as too much. On my landcruiser with using the same tire the 315s have far more bite than the 285s i had on it. The cruiser is a very heavy vehicle, much like the cayenne. Does the cayenne have enough weight to get better traction with a wider tire compared to a narrow one. How wide till traction decreases? How narrow till traction decreases? What is the sweet spot? Only measured tests with a cayenne on various widths can find the answer. Food for thought. Supposed to snow 15-25 cm tonight so I will be able to see the diff between the cruiser and the cayenne. Any thoughts on this.
10-22-2012, 11:02 PM
#21
Racer
Thread Starter
mtnrat,
I believe it depends if you want to float above the snow, or dig down to the pavement for some traction.
When I was in Iceland, everybody drove with giant balloon tires. Your Landcruiser would have looked like a wimps truck with undersized tires, believe it or not! Since they are driving through the interior with no roads, or over glaciers, last thing they want to do is dig down. Those areas never saw a snow-plough, "dig down" goes for many feet down. You absolutely want to float on top! Just like off-roading.
My roads on the other hand get ploughed and salted, hours after it snows. So during a snow storm, I want to cut down through that 6 inches of snow to some pavement to grab onto something. Hence for most American/Canadian situations, on maintained roads, narrow is the way to go.
So are you a floater or a cutter? For your first 25cm of wet snow of the year, I bet cutting is the way to go! After that, you seem to live in some pretty nasty winter stuff, perhaps some floatation wouldn't hurt!
Let us know how your comparison tests go!
I believe it depends if you want to float above the snow, or dig down to the pavement for some traction.
When I was in Iceland, everybody drove with giant balloon tires. Your Landcruiser would have looked like a wimps truck with undersized tires, believe it or not! Since they are driving through the interior with no roads, or over glaciers, last thing they want to do is dig down. Those areas never saw a snow-plough, "dig down" goes for many feet down. You absolutely want to float on top! Just like off-roading.
My roads on the other hand get ploughed and salted, hours after it snows. So during a snow storm, I want to cut down through that 6 inches of snow to some pavement to grab onto something. Hence for most American/Canadian situations, on maintained roads, narrow is the way to go.
So are you a floater or a cutter? For your first 25cm of wet snow of the year, I bet cutting is the way to go! After that, you seem to live in some pretty nasty winter stuff, perhaps some floatation wouldn't hurt!
Let us know how your comparison tests go!
10-24-2012, 09:18 PM
#24
mtnrat,
I believe it depends if you want to float above the snow, or dig down to the pavement for some traction.
When I was in Iceland, everybody drove with giant balloon tires. Your Landcruiser would have looked like a wimps truck with undersized tires, believe it or not! Since they are driving through the interior with no roads, or over glaciers, last thing they want to do is dig down. Those areas never saw a snow-plough, "dig down" goes for many feet down. You absolutely want to float on top! Just like off-roading.
My roads on the other hand get ploughed and salted, hours after it snows. So during a snow storm, I want to cut down through that 6 inches of snow to some pavement to grab onto something. Hence for most American/Canadian situations, on maintained roads, narrow is the way to go.
So are you a floater or a cutter? For your first 25cm of wet snow of the year, I bet cutting is the way to go! After that, you seem to live in some pretty nasty winter stuff, perhaps some floatation wouldn't hurt!
Let us know how your comparison tests go!
I believe it depends if you want to float above the snow, or dig down to the pavement for some traction.
When I was in Iceland, everybody drove with giant balloon tires. Your Landcruiser would have looked like a wimps truck with undersized tires, believe it or not! Since they are driving through the interior with no roads, or over glaciers, last thing they want to do is dig down. Those areas never saw a snow-plough, "dig down" goes for many feet down. You absolutely want to float on top! Just like off-roading.
My roads on the other hand get ploughed and salted, hours after it snows. So during a snow storm, I want to cut down through that 6 inches of snow to some pavement to grab onto something. Hence for most American/Canadian situations, on maintained roads, narrow is the way to go.
So are you a floater or a cutter? For your first 25cm of wet snow of the year, I bet cutting is the way to go! After that, you seem to live in some pretty nasty winter stuff, perhaps some floatation wouldn't hurt!
Let us know how your comparison tests go!
10-25-2012, 10:59 PM
#25
Racer
Thread Starter
Just ordered those cheapo TPMS sensors from eBay, vendor professionally contacted me to confirm type of car, compatibility, etc. When they arrive in 2 weeks or so, will order the 255/55/18 Pirell Scorpion Winter (unless I discover a reason to change my mind). Dealer better not give me warranty grief for non n-spec tires !!!
10-25-2012, 11:04 PM
#26
Rocky Mountain High
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I've heard good things about the Pirellis. I think you'll be happy.
The Michelin Latitude Alpins got a nice test today! We got a few inches last night and we're expecting 5-inches more tonight. I love snow...
The Michelin Latitude Alpins got a nice test today! We got a few inches last night and we're expecting 5-inches more tonight. I love snow...
11-02-2012, 11:52 AM
#27
I had the pirelli scorpion winter tires mounted on my gts.
many more sipes cut into the tread and they seem to ride softer than the scorpion ice and snow.
the ice and snow version lasted 4 seasons, around 12k miles and were amazing in all winter conditions.
only got stuck once on sheer ice and in that case just steered over to some snow for traction.
the new scorpion winter was 80 bucks more per tire than the ice and snow version four years ago and with more sipes might not last as long. they do 'look' like more of a winter snow tire with the fancy tread pattern. hard to imagine something better than the ice and snow version so I'm looking forward to real time tests with the new tires.
pirelli currently has a $50 mail in rebate good until dec 2nd.
many more sipes cut into the tread and they seem to ride softer than the scorpion ice and snow.
the ice and snow version lasted 4 seasons, around 12k miles and were amazing in all winter conditions.
only got stuck once on sheer ice and in that case just steered over to some snow for traction.
the new scorpion winter was 80 bucks more per tire than the ice and snow version four years ago and with more sipes might not last as long. they do 'look' like more of a winter snow tire with the fancy tread pattern. hard to imagine something better than the ice and snow version so I'm looking forward to real time tests with the new tires.
pirelli currently has a $50 mail in rebate good until dec 2nd.
11-02-2012, 02:34 PM
#28
Racer
Thread Starter
We have a first! (non Pirelli sponsored report on the Scorpion Winter that is!)
- I take it they do not magically have an "N" stamped on the sidewall, despite all their "Co-designed by Porsche Hype"?
- How is the noise compared to your summer set-up, do you notice any difference? It does look like a more aggressive tread pattern than the old Ice&Snow.
BTW, Tire Rack (as well as my local dealer) sells the Scorpion Winter for almost the same price as the old Ice&Snow. At least for the 255/55/18 size.
- I take it they do not magically have an "N" stamped on the sidewall, despite all their "Co-designed by Porsche Hype"?
- How is the noise compared to your summer set-up, do you notice any difference? It does look like a more aggressive tread pattern than the old Ice&Snow.
BTW, Tire Rack (as well as my local dealer) sells the Scorpion Winter for almost the same price as the old Ice&Snow. At least for the 255/55/18 size.
11-02-2012, 04:21 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
Still happy with our Scorpion snow & ice.
This is the beginning of our second season with this tire.
Came back through the mountains yesterday, snow, ice, freezing rain, slush ruts, snow ruts, trying to pass slow trucks --- all the usual winter highway mountain driving.
At about 26,000 km (about 16,000 miles) and they are holding up very well.
Might get one more season out of them.
Thanks for the heads up on the Winter version!
This is the beginning of our second season with this tire.
Came back through the mountains yesterday, snow, ice, freezing rain, slush ruts, snow ruts, trying to pass slow trucks --- all the usual winter highway mountain driving.
At about 26,000 km (about 16,000 miles) and they are holding up very well.
Might get one more season out of them.
Thanks for the heads up on the Winter version!
11-02-2012, 10:23 PM
#30
I used a sharpie to draw an 'N' on the sidewall, so I'm good.
haven't noticed any noise issues, they seem soft and quiet.
I was surprised at the pricing of scorpion ice and snow being the same as the scorpion winter.
you'd think they'd discount ice and snow under winter if it is the replacement.
but mostly I was complaining about inflation, 20 bucks per year for a tire. is that in the cpi?
after delivery, mounting and balancing, tire disposal, tpms rebuild, all that crap, I was out 403 per corner.
I need to learn to drive like resp and get more miles out of my tires.
haven't noticed any noise issues, they seem soft and quiet.
I was surprised at the pricing of scorpion ice and snow being the same as the scorpion winter.
you'd think they'd discount ice and snow under winter if it is the replacement.
but mostly I was complaining about inflation, 20 bucks per year for a tire. is that in the cpi?
after delivery, mounting and balancing, tire disposal, tpms rebuild, all that crap, I was out 403 per corner.
I need to learn to drive like resp and get more miles out of my tires.