Why Bother ???
03-19-2002, 02:28 PM
#31
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Last weekend I had the pleasure of visiting the Factory in Stuttgart.
Being in awe land at the Porsche Zentrum I struck a conversation about the Cayenne with one of the sales managers.
He was very pasionate about the Cayenne.In his mind the Porsche mission is crystal clear. To RETAIN the Porsche customer. He said something I had thought about as well and changed my stand against the Cayenne. He said that the Cayenne is aimed towards Porsche owners over 35. In his German English he said that most Porsche owners start young buying a used cheap Porsche. That owner now has "infestation" (the bug) in his/her blood about Porsche cars. Then this owner as he/she becomes more succesfull he continues to move up the Porsche ladder having this (infestation) which leads to customer loyalty to the product. Then as he/she hits their thirties family comes along and for 16 years as he put it you need to hawl kids, luggage, tents, etc. That is where Cayenne comes. This owner does not have to give up their Porsche ownership ( how many times we have seen "got married the Porsche has to go" sales adds) with Cayenne now fitting the bill. Then after 16 years this owner can move back to a 911 or a boxter since hauling kids etc is not vital anymore. Solid logic in my book and very "germanic" (read practical) thinking...
He also said that their reaserch has revealed that most owners have a second car usually an SUV or a four door sedan so why not to remain in the family??? (the infestation thing came up again!).
He said that the Porsche image is for sports cars and the Cayenne will be sports meaning a sportier SUV than the others so he does not see why there should be any image problem! And now to the part that will HORIFY all ( LOL) In the future there will be a.....DIESEL engine!!!! <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
YES you heard me right!!! His "germanic" logic again: "Porsche makes a V10 Diesel for powerboats which is a Diesel but a sports one..." " the fact is that looking at Mercedes ML and BMW's X5 their sales account for 70% with the Diesel engine".
The fact is that most people on this list we live in US where Diesel is almost a non category. Come to Europe and Diesel is the order of the day for most Europeans. Fuel is cheap (compared to the gasoline prices 0.85 Euros per Litter VS 1++ Euros per litter of unleaded) and diesel cars most with turbo chargers are plenty fast and very economical with monster torque at very low revs which counts in the city.
I think we tend to forget that the people who make decisions live and work in a town where Mercedes is the predominant manufacturer with an impossing presence around the city and just a 7 miles away from the Porsche factory!! Compared to Mercedes Porsche is tiny in Stuttgart and the "Porsche is a very small company" seems like a slogan from all the people working at Porsche.
The decision makers have live with different realities than us. They live in Stuttgart , high fuel prices, different culture and habits...
So I for one having this experience do not blame them anymore for thinking this way. I think living his reality with being married and in my thirties with kids on the way the need for an SUV is around the corner...Now that Cayenne would not look that bad next to my 993!( solid argument to sell to the wife!
)
Come to think of it...with NA being one of the largest markets for Porsche shouldn't we get blamed for this???? I mean that the SUV fad started in the good ol US. Our people buy these monsters by the ton. Now if we were not buying SUV's and were buying regular 4 door cars like Europeans used to buy....I'm I alone to think that Porsche would have produced a 4 door sports sedan ala M5 instead of an SUV????
Something to close my long post...
On the Porsche musuem on display it was......
an old Porsche DIESEL TRACTOR!!!!
Talking about Porsche HERITAGE... <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Being in awe land at the Porsche Zentrum I struck a conversation about the Cayenne with one of the sales managers.
He was very pasionate about the Cayenne.In his mind the Porsche mission is crystal clear. To RETAIN the Porsche customer. He said something I had thought about as well and changed my stand against the Cayenne. He said that the Cayenne is aimed towards Porsche owners over 35. In his German English he said that most Porsche owners start young buying a used cheap Porsche. That owner now has "infestation" (the bug) in his/her blood about Porsche cars. Then this owner as he/she becomes more succesfull he continues to move up the Porsche ladder having this (infestation) which leads to customer loyalty to the product. Then as he/she hits their thirties family comes along and for 16 years as he put it you need to hawl kids, luggage, tents, etc. That is where Cayenne comes. This owner does not have to give up their Porsche ownership ( how many times we have seen "got married the Porsche has to go" sales adds) with Cayenne now fitting the bill. Then after 16 years this owner can move back to a 911 or a boxter since hauling kids etc is not vital anymore. Solid logic in my book and very "germanic" (read practical) thinking...
He also said that their reaserch has revealed that most owners have a second car usually an SUV or a four door sedan so why not to remain in the family??? (the infestation thing came up again!).
He said that the Porsche image is for sports cars and the Cayenne will be sports meaning a sportier SUV than the others so he does not see why there should be any image problem! And now to the part that will HORIFY all ( LOL) In the future there will be a.....DIESEL engine!!!! <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />
YES you heard me right!!! His "germanic" logic again: "Porsche makes a V10 Diesel for powerboats which is a Diesel but a sports one..." " the fact is that looking at Mercedes ML and BMW's X5 their sales account for 70% with the Diesel engine".
The fact is that most people on this list we live in US where Diesel is almost a non category. Come to Europe and Diesel is the order of the day for most Europeans. Fuel is cheap (compared to the gasoline prices 0.85 Euros per Litter VS 1++ Euros per litter of unleaded) and diesel cars most with turbo chargers are plenty fast and very economical with monster torque at very low revs which counts in the city.
I think we tend to forget that the people who make decisions live and work in a town where Mercedes is the predominant manufacturer with an impossing presence around the city and just a 7 miles away from the Porsche factory!! Compared to Mercedes Porsche is tiny in Stuttgart and the "Porsche is a very small company" seems like a slogan from all the people working at Porsche.
The decision makers have live with different realities than us. They live in Stuttgart , high fuel prices, different culture and habits...
So I for one having this experience do not blame them anymore for thinking this way. I think living his reality with being married and in my thirties with kids on the way the need for an SUV is around the corner...Now that Cayenne would not look that bad next to my 993!( solid argument to sell to the wife!
)Come to think of it...with NA being one of the largest markets for Porsche shouldn't we get blamed for this???? I mean that the SUV fad started in the good ol US. Our people buy these monsters by the ton. Now if we were not buying SUV's and were buying regular 4 door cars like Europeans used to buy....I'm I alone to think that Porsche would have produced a 4 door sports sedan ala M5 instead of an SUV????
Something to close my long post...
On the Porsche musuem on display it was......
an old Porsche DIESEL TRACTOR!!!!
Talking about Porsche HERITAGE... <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
03-19-2002, 04:59 PM
#32
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[quote] ...they should be listening to a bunch of wahoos on a bulletin board, and in a web article, about how to develop their vehicles and what vehicles to develop.
<hr></blockquote>
Sorry Bigporscheguy, don't agree that we are just "wahoos" we represent a good cross section of Porsche's worldwide customer base.
The day a company stops listening is the day it starts to lose direction
<hr></blockquote>
Sorry Bigporscheguy, don't agree that we are just "wahoos" we represent a good cross section of Porsche's worldwide customer base.
The day a company stops listening is the day it starts to lose direction
03-19-2002, 10:46 PM
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You tell 'em George...
Front page of the 3/19/02 NY Times, "The Station Wagon Is Back, but Not as a Car". The article focuses on the emergence of cross over vechiles, the end of SUV popularity, and the dramatic slowing of sales. The reason for the shift, "they attract drivers who want more space and prefer handling and looks of a luxury car."
It goes on to mention the allroad a couple of times (thank you very much) and the Avantisimo concept, as well as the Volvo X-country and the new Pacifica. This reenforces my stance that Porsche should have made the worlds best estate - off an existing VAG platform - and spent the rest on racing (which we all hold so dear). This sells cars (they only intend to sell 1000 of these pepper-pots anyway) and expands brand loyality.
Porsche blew it - they bet a lot on this thing - and I lay it all at Fred Schwab's feet. Bad call Fred, and way too late. We can all hope for the best, but due to the ugly sheet metal (more than anything else) this thing is DOA.
Front page of the 3/19/02 NY Times, "The Station Wagon Is Back, but Not as a Car". The article focuses on the emergence of cross over vechiles, the end of SUV popularity, and the dramatic slowing of sales. The reason for the shift, "they attract drivers who want more space and prefer handling and looks of a luxury car."
It goes on to mention the allroad a couple of times (thank you very much) and the Avantisimo concept, as well as the Volvo X-country and the new Pacifica. This reenforces my stance that Porsche should have made the worlds best estate - off an existing VAG platform - and spent the rest on racing (which we all hold so dear). This sells cars (they only intend to sell 1000 of these pepper-pots anyway) and expands brand loyality.
Porsche blew it - they bet a lot on this thing - and I lay it all at Fred Schwab's feet. Bad call Fred, and way too late. We can all hope for the best, but due to the ugly sheet metal (more than anything else) this thing is DOA.
03-20-2002, 11:13 AM
#34
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DJFI: Interesting post. I liked the reminder of Porsche's history in tractors.
George I couldn't agree more that Porsche, like any company, has to listen to it's customers. But is an internet bulletin board, where there's virtually ZERO guarantee that any of the people here have ever bought a new car, the place to find 'customers'? Or, rather, is the showroom floor, the returned warranty card, and the Rollodex from the Porsche Salesman's desk, the proper place to find real 'customers'? Besides, a company that moves it's corporate goals around just because some internet wahoos are too stubborn and narrow-minded to accept an SUV (a concept that has been successfully benchmarked by Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac) would be foolhardy.
In my opinion, the issue is not whether Porsche should listen to it's customers, rather, it's whether or not we really represent the customers that Porsche wants to service. Without real names, real Porsche AG receipts in our hands and without real new cars purchased by Porsche, we're 'fringe' at best. And this is how it should be for any good marketing department. You bought a '92 right? And how old are you? I'll bet they're doing the math on new car sales and what new Porsche buyers want and what their needs are - my bet is that the family figures prominantly in their analysis.
Just to make it interesting, I'll bet you a beer at the 2004 Hershey Swap Meet that the 2003 Cayenne (I'm not sure when it arrives on our shores) will be a success; Success defined as either selling all the vehicles made or developing major components for a new 911 or putting a major ding in the competition's sales. Just for fun.
George I couldn't agree more that Porsche, like any company, has to listen to it's customers. But is an internet bulletin board, where there's virtually ZERO guarantee that any of the people here have ever bought a new car, the place to find 'customers'? Or, rather, is the showroom floor, the returned warranty card, and the Rollodex from the Porsche Salesman's desk, the proper place to find real 'customers'? Besides, a company that moves it's corporate goals around just because some internet wahoos are too stubborn and narrow-minded to accept an SUV (a concept that has been successfully benchmarked by Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac) would be foolhardy.
In my opinion, the issue is not whether Porsche should listen to it's customers, rather, it's whether or not we really represent the customers that Porsche wants to service. Without real names, real Porsche AG receipts in our hands and without real new cars purchased by Porsche, we're 'fringe' at best. And this is how it should be for any good marketing department. You bought a '92 right? And how old are you? I'll bet they're doing the math on new car sales and what new Porsche buyers want and what their needs are - my bet is that the family figures prominantly in their analysis.
Just to make it interesting, I'll bet you a beer at the 2004 Hershey Swap Meet that the 2003 Cayenne (I'm not sure when it arrives on our shores) will be a success; Success defined as either selling all the vehicles made or developing major components for a new 911 or putting a major ding in the competition's sales. Just for fun.
03-20-2002, 11:31 AM
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[quote] I couldn't agree more that Porsche, like any company, has to listen to it's customers. But is an internet bulletin board, where there's virtually ZERO guarantee that any of the people here have ever bought a new car<hr></blockquote>
I would be careful about assuming what type of customers use this bulletin board.
I am in the process at the moment of buying a new £35,000 car and a Porsche product (Boxster) will fit my budget. So although I will probably buy a product from another German manufacturer I am potentially a new Porsche customer.
Back in 1973 Porsche produced the Carrera RS against advice from the marketing people that the car would never sell, in 1992 Porsche produced the 964 RS at over £9,000 more than a standard Carrera 2 and over 2000 sold, the majority in basic lightweight specification.
Although I personaly hate Ferrari's, the reason the brand is so strong and residules are so high is that Ferrari have worked hard to develop it and keep the basic integrity of that brand, I know it's owned by Fiat, but Ferrari owners and aspirational potential owners don't care.
The Boxster was a step in the right direction, good chassis, sensible price, back to basics approach, this new offering just dismisses over 50 years of Porsche rationale
A bloody great big heavy lump of a car with a high centre of gravity which could be used as a sensible family car........if I want sensible I would buy a Merc!!!!
I would be careful about assuming what type of customers use this bulletin board.
I am in the process at the moment of buying a new £35,000 car and a Porsche product (Boxster) will fit my budget. So although I will probably buy a product from another German manufacturer I am potentially a new Porsche customer.
Back in 1973 Porsche produced the Carrera RS against advice from the marketing people that the car would never sell, in 1992 Porsche produced the 964 RS at over £9,000 more than a standard Carrera 2 and over 2000 sold, the majority in basic lightweight specification.
Although I personaly hate Ferrari's, the reason the brand is so strong and residules are so high is that Ferrari have worked hard to develop it and keep the basic integrity of that brand, I know it's owned by Fiat, but Ferrari owners and aspirational potential owners don't care.
The Boxster was a step in the right direction, good chassis, sensible price, back to basics approach, this new offering just dismisses over 50 years of Porsche rationale
A bloody great big heavy lump of a car with a high centre of gravity which could be used as a sensible family car........if I want sensible I would buy a Merc!!!!
03-20-2002, 01:29 PM
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I just don't see anyone going out and buying Porsche's if they suddenly matched the pricing of the current line up of Ferrari's. There is simply a bigger space with this SUV/Hybrid thing than there is for yet another 50 car run of supercar or worse another Porsche that a Honda S2000 from Budget rent-a-car can outperform.
K
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03-20-2002, 04:18 PM
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Ok George, I see your point. And I'm certainly not trying to say the guys here ALL drive old Porsche. But let's try a thought experiment: Pretend you're a marketing guy...now scan the website. How many are USED Porsche and how many are NEW Porsche owners? My guess? About 95% of us are driving used, older Porsche and did not buy the cars new.
And what about you? You're buying a new car right? And it's not a Porsche. So why should they listen to you? You don't drive their sales. Same applies to me, and thousands of others here who will never buy a new Porsche.
Now consider if you're in the $200,000 to infinity income range, and you need a family vehicle, you can justify a Cayenne. They'll want to talk to you. You're not choosing between an Audi wagon and a Volvo, you're choosing between the high end Mercedes and BMW. And I bet their business plan was pretty astute that, given a third entry on the scene, you'll choose the new arrival: a Cayenne.
And what about you? You're buying a new car right? And it's not a Porsche. So why should they listen to you? You don't drive their sales. Same applies to me, and thousands of others here who will never buy a new Porsche.
Now consider if you're in the $200,000 to infinity income range, and you need a family vehicle, you can justify a Cayenne. They'll want to talk to you. You're not choosing between an Audi wagon and a Volvo, you're choosing between the high end Mercedes and BMW. And I bet their business plan was pretty astute that, given a third entry on the scene, you'll choose the new arrival: a Cayenne.
03-20-2002, 09:22 PM
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Can't say I totally agree BigPguy...
I for one was the perfect candidate for the Pepper-fish - 3rd car, 8 year Porsche owner, of means, desiring a more luxureous ride for my wife - one that will double as people mover. But, even if it wasn't ugly, the high-priced SUV market is a joke. Knowledgable buyers are getting tired of SUVs - and it is looking like the fashion accessory set(aka - the target market for this thing) is moving on to dare I say cross-over estates...
And I can see why...we drove everything: M55 (cheapo interior), V8 M5 (try putting a 60lb. dog in the boot - then try 3), Rover (the best, but bricks are easier the manuveur), Lexus Camary/truck (not bad, but not our style), Caddy (getting there, but don't need the super size), GMC (ditto), Navigator (ditto), Expedition (ditto). Then we drove an allroad - sold. Nice handling, quite, luxury interior, decent power, trick suspension, bull dog ugly looks - and it all works well together.
This isn't meant as an allroad ad, just one persons view that was in the market, takes pride in making informed decisions, and was willing to spend top dollar - and is a certified Porsche phanatic. But after driving all of these and then seeing how ugly the pepper-pot was going to be we said - why bother?
I think the typical Porsche owner (at least all the ones I've hung with over the years) is very knowledgeable about the market, and has high brand loyality. But that loyalty has been pushed over the past years. The Boxster and the 996 may have created a new buyers market, but not a lot of repeat buyers. Who cares you say? If I'm Porsche, I'm wondering are there enough first timers left?
Have you priced a '99, or early Boxster lately?You can get a '99 for high $40's low $50's, early Boxsters are in the $30's. Many sell their new cars for older cars (my neighbor just sold his 996TT for a '98 993TT - in less then a year). Values in the 993 market increased again last year. The 911 buying motto was always buy the lastest one available - is that still true?
A $60K+ SUV in an oversaturated, quickly narrowing niche market, the question becomes who will bother?
I for one was the perfect candidate for the Pepper-fish - 3rd car, 8 year Porsche owner, of means, desiring a more luxureous ride for my wife - one that will double as people mover. But, even if it wasn't ugly, the high-priced SUV market is a joke. Knowledgable buyers are getting tired of SUVs - and it is looking like the fashion accessory set(aka - the target market for this thing) is moving on to dare I say cross-over estates...
And I can see why...we drove everything: M55 (cheapo interior), V8 M5 (try putting a 60lb. dog in the boot - then try 3), Rover (the best, but bricks are easier the manuveur), Lexus Camary/truck (not bad, but not our style), Caddy (getting there, but don't need the super size), GMC (ditto), Navigator (ditto), Expedition (ditto). Then we drove an allroad - sold. Nice handling, quite, luxury interior, decent power, trick suspension, bull dog ugly looks - and it all works well together.
This isn't meant as an allroad ad, just one persons view that was in the market, takes pride in making informed decisions, and was willing to spend top dollar - and is a certified Porsche phanatic. But after driving all of these and then seeing how ugly the pepper-pot was going to be we said - why bother?
I think the typical Porsche owner (at least all the ones I've hung with over the years) is very knowledgeable about the market, and has high brand loyality. But that loyalty has been pushed over the past years. The Boxster and the 996 may have created a new buyers market, but not a lot of repeat buyers. Who cares you say? If I'm Porsche, I'm wondering are there enough first timers left?
Have you priced a '99, or early Boxster lately?You can get a '99 for high $40's low $50's, early Boxsters are in the $30's. Many sell their new cars for older cars (my neighbor just sold his 996TT for a '98 993TT - in less then a year). Values in the 993 market increased again last year. The 911 buying motto was always buy the lastest one available - is that still true?
A $60K+ SUV in an oversaturated, quickly narrowing niche market, the question becomes who will bother?
03-21-2002, 12:00 PM
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MPM: Well you make some good points...so I guess we'll just have to wait and see how the sales go.
You can still buy me a beer when it turns out to be a sales success.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
You can still buy me a beer when it turns out to be a sales success.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
03-22-2002, 12:59 AM
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Kevin - nope wouldn't be caught dead in it - but a new C4S would be nice...
How 'bout you? You plunk'en down some cash on this Bell-of-the-SUV-ball?
BigPguy - you're on! One question, what is the hurdle, and over what period of time?
Have a great weekend...
How 'bout you? You plunk'en down some cash on this Bell-of-the-SUV-ball?
BigPguy - you're on! One question, what is the hurdle, and over what period of time?
Have a great weekend...
03-22-2002, 05:27 AM
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[quote] I for one was the perfect candidate for the Pepper-fish - 3rd car, 8 year Porsche owner, of means, desiring a more luxureous ride for my wife <hr></blockquote>
Ditch the wife, get a life!!!!!
Ditch the wife, get a life!!!!!
03-22-2002, 10:40 AM
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George - ditch the wife for an ugly SUV? Nah,love the wife - got it right on the first try. Now I'm getting excited about the Catfish, it'll be fun checking out the poseurs - with thier latest fashion accessory.
Where is that famed British sensibility? Or is it always so dank there that you come to prefer the company of cars - no matter now fugly?
BYW, word is Porsche has sold out 3 years of production - by forcing the inventory on its dealer network.
Have a great weekend...
Where is that famed British sensibility? Or is it always so dank there that you come to prefer the company of cars - no matter now fugly?
BYW, word is Porsche has sold out 3 years of production - by forcing the inventory on its dealer network.
Have a great weekend...