Mercedes Rep takes hit. Just like Porsche's will.
02-04-2002, 07:15 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mercedes Rep takes hit. Just like Porsche's will.
Check out this article by Scott Miller and Kaaren Lundegaard from Frankfurt. Here are some excerpts.
"Last week, a portion of the normally highly confidential New Car Buyer Survey was leaked to a German automobile trade publication. The report showed Mercedes quality and customer satisfaction falling since 1999 to levels BELOW Opel, the German unit of General Motors Corp. and a brand with one of the worst images in Europe.
Mercedes verified the leaked portions of the report. Johannes Reifenrath, director of communications at Mercedes-Benz passenger cars in Stuttgart, said a more detailed version of the survey showed Mercedes quality as High as Opel.
Are you kidding me? Mercedes as high as Opel, what a joke.
In the US Mercedes ranks behind Lincoln, Cadillac and Jaguar.
All because they wanted to broaden their market appeal with product range. This goes back to my point of BRAND EROSION. Mercedes seems to be well on their way. And the intellects at Porsche seem to be heading in the same direction.
First the Boxster, now the Cayenne - they are killing the Porsche brand.
"Last week, a portion of the normally highly confidential New Car Buyer Survey was leaked to a German automobile trade publication. The report showed Mercedes quality and customer satisfaction falling since 1999 to levels BELOW Opel, the German unit of General Motors Corp. and a brand with one of the worst images in Europe.
Mercedes verified the leaked portions of the report. Johannes Reifenrath, director of communications at Mercedes-Benz passenger cars in Stuttgart, said a more detailed version of the survey showed Mercedes quality as High as Opel.
Are you kidding me? Mercedes as high as Opel, what a joke.
In the US Mercedes ranks behind Lincoln, Cadillac and Jaguar.
All because they wanted to broaden their market appeal with product range. This goes back to my point of BRAND EROSION. Mercedes seems to be well on their way. And the intellects at Porsche seem to be heading in the same direction.
First the Boxster, now the Cayenne - they are killing the Porsche brand.
02-04-2002, 07:48 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Los Angeles/Honolulu
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Welll that statements kind of misguided. That Mercedes Benz is lacking in customer satisfaction and or quality has little to do with the cars it's offering and a lot to do with how it's BUILDING and SERVICING the vehicles that it is offering. Lincoln and Cadillac all have a broad range of vehicles including SUV's, Jaguar is owned by Ford and has tons of it's parts underneath the skin.
The thing those three makers have in common is that they are not independant. Porsche still is and is seeking to keep itself that way and for better or worse it sees that ability in the Cayenne. If the build quality is there, and the customer service is there and people purchase the thing then it'll be fine.
So I don't think it's so much brand erosion as it is build quality and service in the brands you choose to offer. Now having said all that, I am not nor have I ever been in favor of SUV's of any kind make or model unless you live 30 miles offroad in Montana or Colorado.
K
The thing those three makers have in common is that they are not independant. Porsche still is and is seeking to keep itself that way and for better or worse it sees that ability in the Cayenne. If the build quality is there, and the customer service is there and people purchase the thing then it'll be fine.
So I don't think it's so much brand erosion as it is build quality and service in the brands you choose to offer. Now having said all that, I am not nor have I ever been in favor of SUV's of any kind make or model unless you live 30 miles offroad in Montana or Colorado.
K
02-05-2002, 05:43 PM
#3
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
In July 2000, I purchased a brand-new MB S500 Sport to drive while waiting for an S55 AMG to arrive. I had never owned a MB, but was attracted to the legendary build quality, elegant lines, and performance of the new S-class.
Well, after 4 months and about 3,000 miles, I sold the car and cancelled my S55 AMG order. I was incredibly disappointed with the build quality. The interior trim quality was worse than many minivans (and probably Opels!
), and I had several flimsy parts break on me within weeks. Lots of cheap plastic and horrible velour. I also had less-than-perfect experiences with one of two MB dealers. In its defense, the chassis and engine were nice.
I've sworn off MB forever, but have had wonderful experiences since this one in purchasing a used 1997 993TT and new 2002 BMW M3 SMG.
MB needs to tread very carefully, or they risk losing an important future core of customers. I'm not so sure that Porsche is in the same danger, but the interior of the first 996s wasn't too impressive, either. From what I've read, it's improved.
I hope Porsche will produce some outstanding cars in the future that don't cost as much as the Carrera GT, or GT2.
Or at least, bring the GT3 to the U.S.. Not all of us Americans want a Cayenne.
Well, after 4 months and about 3,000 miles, I sold the car and cancelled my S55 AMG order. I was incredibly disappointed with the build quality. The interior trim quality was worse than many minivans (and probably Opels!
), and I had several flimsy parts break on me within weeks. Lots of cheap plastic and horrible velour. I also had less-than-perfect experiences with one of two MB dealers. In its defense, the chassis and engine were nice. I've sworn off MB forever, but have had wonderful experiences since this one in purchasing a used 1997 993TT and new 2002 BMW M3 SMG.
MB needs to tread very carefully, or they risk losing an important future core of customers. I'm not so sure that Porsche is in the same danger, but the interior of the first 996s wasn't too impressive, either. From what I've read, it's improved.
I hope Porsche will produce some outstanding cars in the future that don't cost as much as the Carrera GT, or GT2.
Or at least, bring the GT3 to the U.S.. Not all of us Americans want a Cayenne.
02-05-2002, 06:37 PM
#4
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anir I completely agree with you. My father has driven Mercedes since 1981. He currently has a 1995 S420. While the quality of that car is fairly good, it can no way be compared to the quality of his 1981SD. Although I have not experienced the quality of the new cars, my friends and neighbours have - die hard Mercedes people - and they are unhappy as well.
I would assume that the "newbies" (those people "upgrading") from a Ford or Chrysler are "amazed" by the quality of Mercedes. But I'm sorry, if you knew Mercedes quality from the 60's to the 80's, you would feel like us - disappointed.
The fact that the interior on the 996 was, to put it bluntly, garbage, signals to me that Porsche is going the same direction. The "newbies", may be amazed, but those people who have any experiences with old 911's, 964's and 993's are disappointed.
Mercedes is fully aware of their problem now. Sorry Kaz but if you have never owned an older Mercedes and a new one, you can't even comment on this topic - you just don't know until you experience it.
I would assume that the "newbies" (those people "upgrading") from a Ford or Chrysler are "amazed" by the quality of Mercedes. But I'm sorry, if you knew Mercedes quality from the 60's to the 80's, you would feel like us - disappointed.
The fact that the interior on the 996 was, to put it bluntly, garbage, signals to me that Porsche is going the same direction. The "newbies", may be amazed, but those people who have any experiences with old 911's, 964's and 993's are disappointed.
Mercedes is fully aware of their problem now. Sorry Kaz but if you have never owned an older Mercedes and a new one, you can't even comment on this topic - you just don't know until you experience it.
02-06-2002, 01:41 AM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Los Angeles/Honolulu
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ALLRIGHTY THEN Roschpe, thank you for telling me what I have owned and what I haven't. Now if you'll just curb your hysteria please, I will comment. My family has owned MB's since the early 80's and I in fact, just last year had a 92 500E and I completely agree that the build quality since then has gone downhill. I actually sold the 500E with 99,600 miles to someone who was considering a new E55 but didn't like it much and even the dealership will tell you the new cars don't have the build quality of the old.
Over a week ago I went to investigate a 996 for possible replacement of my 88 928S4, and the interiors were just sad as far as I was concerned. The leather was thin, and when I went to look at the used 996's on the lot, none of them with more than 30k on the odometers, the interiors looked like they had 90k on them. Fact is, cost cutting has to happen somewhere and every manufacturer out there is doing it. I've been looking for a car going on a month now and whether is MB, BMW (the M cars being the exception thus far), or Audi, there's lots of plastic, lots of thin leather and it seems to me like a guessing game on which of these cars will hold up the longest. Anyway it's not THE CARS (Boxster or otherwise) Porsche or MB's are building that are cheapening their respective brand names. It is the materials, workmanship and lack of service being put into the vehicles that is doing the job you singlehandedly accuse the Boxster and now the Cayenne of doing.
I therefore think your hysteria is unneccesary and misguided and that you might not be that aware of what the manufacturers are doing these days to keep prices down and turn profits. If you are then my apologies and we can consider the matter closed. Care to tell me what else I can't comment on? Don't say your "sorry" to me, apologize to yourself for your assumptions.
Anir, how many miles have you put on the M3 and is there anything you don't like about the car? Does it look like all the little bits and pieces are going to stay attached? That car may be my alternative. Thanks.
K
Over a week ago I went to investigate a 996 for possible replacement of my 88 928S4, and the interiors were just sad as far as I was concerned. The leather was thin, and when I went to look at the used 996's on the lot, none of them with more than 30k on the odometers, the interiors looked like they had 90k on them. Fact is, cost cutting has to happen somewhere and every manufacturer out there is doing it. I've been looking for a car going on a month now and whether is MB, BMW (the M cars being the exception thus far), or Audi, there's lots of plastic, lots of thin leather and it seems to me like a guessing game on which of these cars will hold up the longest. Anyway it's not THE CARS (Boxster or otherwise) Porsche or MB's are building that are cheapening their respective brand names. It is the materials, workmanship and lack of service being put into the vehicles that is doing the job you singlehandedly accuse the Boxster and now the Cayenne of doing.
I therefore think your hysteria is unneccesary and misguided and that you might not be that aware of what the manufacturers are doing these days to keep prices down and turn profits. If you are then my apologies and we can consider the matter closed. Care to tell me what else I can't comment on? Don't say your "sorry" to me, apologize to yourself for your assumptions.
Anir, how many miles have you put on the M3 and is there anything you don't like about the car? Does it look like all the little bits and pieces are going to stay attached? That car may be my alternative. Thanks.
K
02-06-2002, 04:51 PM
#6
R.I.P.
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New London, NH & Naples
Posts: 3,770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My .02 Porsche was going broke until they totally revamped their way of manufacturing cars; Mercedes is swallowing Chrysler's problems, and BMW's story about some of the mistakes they have made (and are continuing to do so ...look at the new 7 series (butt ugly) that these mfrs all had a wake up call. Best way to improve profits is to cut costs. That's management 101. You can improve profits/cut losses far faster and with more impact than by attracting new revenue. So Porsche, BMW, and Mercedes all got a wake up call and over-reacted. Look at VW and you'll see a company that went thru the same process until.....Dr. Piech came along.
Moral of the story is you can't beat GOOD MANAGEMENT, no matter what. The mystique of German quality is now a myth as they compete in the world market. If the average use of an automobile is the life of a lease or a loan (3-4 years for a new buyer, why should a car company build any more life into it. Automobiles have become travel appliances rather than machines. My .02 on a lousy afternoon. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
Moral of the story is you can't beat GOOD MANAGEMENT, no matter what. The mystique of German quality is now a myth as they compete in the world market. If the average use of an automobile is the life of a lease or a loan (3-4 years for a new buyer, why should a car company build any more life into it. Automobiles have become travel appliances rather than machines. My .02 on a lousy afternoon. <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/a_smil17.gif" border="0" alt="[blabla]" /> <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
02-06-2002, 05:06 PM
#7
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason you put more effort into building more life into a car is so that you can ask a premium for it. Mercedes were always more expensive than Ford, and the quality difference showed. But now the quality differnce between the 2 makes is so small, why should I pay a 40,000 premium?
Whether you want to believe it or not there was a WORLD, a WORLD of difference between a 1981 500SEL and Ford's or GM's top model of that year - thus there was a substantial price difference as well.
Now take the 2001 S500 and compare it to Ford's or GM's top model of 2001. Not much of a difference any more but the price between them is still substantial.
Whether you want to believe it or not there was a WORLD, a WORLD of difference between a 1981 500SEL and Ford's or GM's top model of that year - thus there was a substantial price difference as well.
Now take the 2001 S500 and compare it to Ford's or GM's top model of 2001. Not much of a difference any more but the price between them is still substantial.
Trending Topics
02-06-2002, 05:28 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Los Angeles/Honolulu
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don, I rather agree that that is what it has come down to.
Rorpche, as far as I'm concerned a lot of these manufacturers are indeed cashing in on their name alone as the rest of the vehicle can't be justified at those high prices. I guess an extreme example would be the new Bentleys with the BMW engines. On the other hand, with a 4 year lease and the manufacturer paying all the maintenance cost does anyone really care beyond the annoyance perhaps of continually bringing the car in for silly stuff.
All I know is I'm absolutely stumped as to what car to step into that will be of interest to me even 2 years down the road. So far I've looked at the 996, an Audi S4, and a CLK 430...next up will be the M3 but I see dealerships are still demanding 55 to 60 grand for even used examples with 6k on the odometer and all new models are spoken for. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
K <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
Rorpche, as far as I'm concerned a lot of these manufacturers are indeed cashing in on their name alone as the rest of the vehicle can't be justified at those high prices. I guess an extreme example would be the new Bentleys with the BMW engines. On the other hand, with a 4 year lease and the manufacturer paying all the maintenance cost does anyone really care beyond the annoyance perhaps of continually bringing the car in for silly stuff.
All I know is I'm absolutely stumped as to what car to step into that will be of interest to me even 2 years down the road. So far I've looked at the 996, an Audi S4, and a CLK 430...next up will be the M3 but I see dealerships are still demanding 55 to 60 grand for even used examples with 6k on the odometer and all new models are spoken for. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
K <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />
02-07-2002, 01:12 AM
#9
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
[quote]Originally posted by Kaz:<strong>ons.
Anir, how many miles have you put on the M3 and is there anything you don't like about the car? Does it look like all the little bits and pieces are going to stay attached? That car may be my alternative. Thanks.
K </strong><hr></blockquote>
Kaz,
We've only got about 1,000 miles on the M3, but it is getting better every day. The build quality, not to mention the trick engineering (SMG, 8000 redline, wonderful inline 6, raspy race-car like exhaust), is very impressive. It's a bit ironic, since the M3 is significantly less expensive than most Porsches and MB out there.
The interior quality is great, with substantial leather that seems robust and well-stitched. Even the plastics are soft and well-done. The doors shut with a reassuring thud, and the overall fit and finish offer a nice contrast to recent offerings from Porsche and MB.
I can't think of a better car out there for under $60K. Recommended without reservations!
Anir, how many miles have you put on the M3 and is there anything you don't like about the car? Does it look like all the little bits and pieces are going to stay attached? That car may be my alternative. Thanks.
K
</strong><hr></blockquote>Kaz,
We've only got about 1,000 miles on the M3, but it is getting better every day. The build quality, not to mention the trick engineering (SMG, 8000 redline, wonderful inline 6, raspy race-car like exhaust), is very impressive. It's a bit ironic, since the M3 is significantly less expensive than most Porsches and MB out there.
The interior quality is great, with substantial leather that seems robust and well-stitched. Even the plastics are soft and well-done. The doors shut with a reassuring thud, and the overall fit and finish offer a nice contrast to recent offerings from Porsche and MB.
I can't think of a better car out there for under $60K. Recommended without reservations!
02-07-2002, 01:36 AM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Los Angeles/Honolulu
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Anir. So you picked up an SMG model for under $60? We'll see what they're asking out here in So Cal. Tomorrow morning I will drive a 6spd M3 convertible at Southbay. They have four more models coming in but I think they're spoken for already.
K
K
02-07-2002, 09:38 AM
#11
Advanced
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just for comparison:
2002 BMW M3 Canada MSRP = $73,500
SMGII = $4,900
All Canadian Dollars
73,500 + 4,900 = $78,400
$78,400 Canadian is equal to about $48,500 US. But don't forget that here in Toronto for example, an M3 ends up being closer to $100,000 because of freight / delivery, gas tax and our 15% SALES TAX.
2002 BMW M3 Canada MSRP = $73,500
SMGII = $4,900
All Canadian Dollars
73,500 + 4,900 = $78,400
$78,400 Canadian is equal to about $48,500 US. But don't forget that here in Toronto for example, an M3 ends up being closer to $100,000 because of freight / delivery, gas tax and our 15% SALES TAX.
02-07-2002, 11:06 AM
#12
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kaz, you wrote:
"Fact is, cost cutting has to happen somewhere and every manufacturer out there is doing it."
Cost cutting DOES NOT have to happen.
It only happens so that "newbies" can afford "Porsches".
Heavy emphasis on the quotes.
"Fact is, cost cutting has to happen somewhere and every manufacturer out there is doing it."
Cost cutting DOES NOT have to happen.
It only happens so that "newbies" can afford "Porsches".
Heavy emphasis on the quotes.
02-07-2002, 12:10 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Los Angeles/Honolulu
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Jason. A friend told me dealerships are still putting a $5 grand mark up on M3's so we'll see what happens when I step up to the batter box.
Roschpe, you just don't get it. About a dozen people on various threads gave you detailed explanations on marketing and management yet you carry on as if you're the Queen of England upset that the executives have sullied "your" brand, Porsche. Had Porsche continued to do business like they did before 92, that is, building a few different platforms few of which shared anything, AND waiting for "you" to pony up 80 grand for a car every few years, they'd be out of business now. Manufacturers have to grow their market share and the "EMPLOYED" people at Porsche and any consultants they hired devised a plan and are doing it. "You" and your "wisdom" or lack thereof do not factor into their business plan.
Trimming costs to remain profitible happens in just about every industry out there. The problems arise when you cut costs so much that quality and service suffer and your customer base goes elsewhere. Bentley is certainly not trying to get 'Newbies' into their cars yet they manufacturer their product differently than they did 10 years ago and trimmed the excesses and no one will say a Bentley from the 80's is a better car than today. TO USE ONE EXAMPLE NOT REPRESENTATIVE FOR THE ENTIRE AUTOMOTIVE MARKET.
It's funny but whenever I read your posts I get reminded of early Hollywood movies when it was ok to slap a hysterical woman. hahhahaha
Anyway, I noticed that some members of the board disregarded your earlier rantings on another thread about the same topic (whom all had marketing experience) and I think I'll do the same.
K <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
Roschpe, you just don't get it. About a dozen people on various threads gave you detailed explanations on marketing and management yet you carry on as if you're the Queen of England upset that the executives have sullied "your" brand, Porsche. Had Porsche continued to do business like they did before 92, that is, building a few different platforms few of which shared anything, AND waiting for "you" to pony up 80 grand for a car every few years, they'd be out of business now. Manufacturers have to grow their market share and the "EMPLOYED" people at Porsche and any consultants they hired devised a plan and are doing it. "You" and your "wisdom" or lack thereof do not factor into their business plan.
Trimming costs to remain profitible happens in just about every industry out there. The problems arise when you cut costs so much that quality and service suffer and your customer base goes elsewhere. Bentley is certainly not trying to get 'Newbies' into their cars yet they manufacturer their product differently than they did 10 years ago and trimmed the excesses and no one will say a Bentley from the 80's is a better car than today. TO USE ONE EXAMPLE NOT REPRESENTATIVE FOR THE ENTIRE AUTOMOTIVE MARKET.
It's funny but whenever I read your posts I get reminded of early Hollywood movies when it was ok to slap a hysterical woman. hahhahaha
Anyway, I noticed that some members of the board disregarded your earlier rantings on another thread about the same topic (whom all had marketing experience) and I think I'll do the same.
K <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
02-07-2002, 12:31 PM
#14
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kaz,
you wrote:
"Had Porsche continued to do business like they did before 92,that is, building a few different platforms few of which shared anything, AND waiting for "you" to pony up 80 grand for a car every few years, they'd be out of business now. "
Mmm I guess you could have said the same thing about Ferrari and Lamborghini.
Look Kaz, you are speaking in good faith but your arguments are a mess. If you did not know, "attacking the person" is a major fallicy of arguments. But if you never took an effective English course, you wouldn't know.
But if you are interested in brushing up get yourself a copy of Mastering Effective English by Larock, Tressler and Lewis, turn to page 432 and then reply to me.
Next time attack my argument, and not me, and maybe your replies to my posts will congruently make sense.
you wrote:
"Had Porsche continued to do business like they did before 92,that is, building a few different platforms few of which shared anything, AND waiting for "you" to pony up 80 grand for a car every few years, they'd be out of business now. "
Mmm I guess you could have said the same thing about Ferrari and Lamborghini.
Look Kaz, you are speaking in good faith but your arguments are a mess. If you did not know, "attacking the person" is a major fallicy of arguments. But if you never took an effective English course, you wouldn't know.
But if you are interested in brushing up get yourself a copy of Mastering Effective English by Larock, Tressler and Lewis, turn to page 432 and then reply to me.
Next time attack my argument, and not me, and maybe your replies to my posts will congruently make sense.
02-07-2002, 01:20 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Los Angeles/Honolulu
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice try from someone who never identifies himself. You got slapped down on earlier threads because you didn't make sense and your arguments don't make sense now. You have a passive aggressive way of personally attacking on any given post. Cowardly would be the word I'm looking for.
Your original point seemed to be that by first building the Boxster and now the Cayenne Porsche would be on it's way to ruin. Then you come back later with some other nonsense about "newbies". Whatever. What you really want is a forum to scream and shout and be right to a new audience which is why you restarted the thread instead of bringing up the article on the original. Everything I've read about the Cayenne seems to indicate that it is aimed at an affleunt buyer not newbies trying to gain entry into the bottom of the Porsche brand.
Anyway more than likely with my sense of humor I will continue to attack you personally when the notion hits and I have a few minutes, mostly because....well, mostly because you get riled up thereby making the perfect target. (I bet this has been the story for most of your life) I'm sure there's something in that big book about making ASSumptions like the one about me not having owned older Benzes and new ones. Find it.
"Mercedes is fully aware of their problem now. Sorry Kaz but if you have never owned an older Mercedes and a new one, you can't even comment on this topic - you just don't know until you experience it."
K <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
Your original point seemed to be that by first building the Boxster and now the Cayenne Porsche would be on it's way to ruin. Then you come back later with some other nonsense about "newbies". Whatever. What you really want is a forum to scream and shout and be right to a new audience which is why you restarted the thread instead of bringing up the article on the original. Everything I've read about the Cayenne seems to indicate that it is aimed at an affleunt buyer not newbies trying to gain entry into the bottom of the Porsche brand.
Anyway more than likely with my sense of humor I will continue to attack you personally when the notion hits and I have a few minutes, mostly because....well, mostly because you get riled up thereby making the perfect target. (I bet this has been the story for most of your life) I'm sure there's something in that big book about making ASSumptions like the one about me not having owned older Benzes and new ones. Find it.
"Mercedes is fully aware of their problem now. Sorry Kaz but if you have never owned an older Mercedes and a new one, you can't even comment on this topic - you just don't know until you experience it."
K
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />