Anyone else object to Pano's European Editors article this month?
01-15-2002, 05:07 PM
#16
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How ironic it will be to see this big yellow sticker in your PORSCHE:
"This is a multipurpose passenger vehicle which will handle and maneuver differently from an ordinary passenger car, in driving conditions which may occur on streets and highways and off road. As with other vehicles of this type, if you make sharp turns or abrupt maneuvers, the vehicle may roll over or may go out of control and crash. You should read driving guidelines and instructions in the Owner's Manual, and wear your seat belt at all times."
-sigh...
"This is a multipurpose passenger vehicle which will handle and maneuver differently from an ordinary passenger car, in driving conditions which may occur on streets and highways and off road. As with other vehicles of this type, if you make sharp turns or abrupt maneuvers, the vehicle may roll over or may go out of control and crash. You should read driving guidelines and instructions in the Owner's Manual, and wear your seat belt at all times."
-sigh...
01-15-2002, 05:47 PM
#17
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Mike, I simply don't care for SUV's. I've stated that before, I'll state it again. About as far as I'd personally go if I did have to haul around kids and equipment is that new Audi wagon with the twin turbo's if I really wanted the street performance and a Rover just wouldn't do.
My understanding is that the Cayenne will have a number of different engine options which are possibly still being debated and that's all good and well. No doubt Porsche did their homework and knows how many they'll have to sell to break even on their investment. They also know they have to offer more than they currently have in the line up to remain an independent company. It's just MY 2 cents that regardless of how good it is, it won't survive on the market place long enough to really be discovered outside of the Porsche enthusiasts who are already inclined to buy it.
Furthermore quite a few car enthusiasts have mused that we really don't need cars like the Viper fun as they are. The most notable of those enthusiasts that I've heard offer this opinion was David E. Davis Jr. when he was in charge of Automobile Magazine. I forget the issue year but it was a few years back when the McClaren was being produced. One of the lines went something like, "does the world really need another 200+mph supercar? There are damn few tracks in the world that can safely manage these speeds let alone public roadways." (I'm paraphrasing of course but that was the gist) No one, least of all I disputes that these superhorsepower cars are fun. Three weeks ago in fact, I drove my first 550hp car in the form of a Lamborghini Diablo and it was enormously fun, but the limits of that car are so high that it curbed the enjoyment level somewhat. With most cars it's quite apparent when you're approaching it and your limits. Not so with the Diablo and I wasn't keen on finding out how small the yellow zone between control and loss of control is. As much as that particular car can do (and I'm sure others like it) it's very easy to get in over your head in a hurry. By the way, I live nearby a Ferrari bodyshop and you'd be surprised how many banged up 360's and F50's are coming in. Repeatedly.
Anyway you also mistook my comment, "it's bad enough what the population is driving right now" I wasn't commenting on anyone but Americans. We really don't need 300 hp power cars even but I drive one and I break almost every speed law there is daily to enjoy what I spend my money on. It's absolutely silly that I drive it and I recognize my behavior as such. I have and do travel extensively and am well aware of what the rest of the world drives and what their opinions about us are.
As for your worry about restrictions and sameness are concerned that particular log jam is coming down the pike anyway. Not today or tomorrow but it's inevitable. No one has to restrict what you're driving because ones own choices in life and income do that nicely enough for now. I'm not of the opinion that manufacturers are doing any of what they do for our safety or concern. They do it because they need to stay in business (and out of legal trouble) and our collective human behavior dictates that there'd better be something new and improved before we plunk our hard earned cash down on whatever it is.
My 3 cents.
K
My understanding is that the Cayenne will have a number of different engine options which are possibly still being debated and that's all good and well. No doubt Porsche did their homework and knows how many they'll have to sell to break even on their investment. They also know they have to offer more than they currently have in the line up to remain an independent company. It's just MY 2 cents that regardless of how good it is, it won't survive on the market place long enough to really be discovered outside of the Porsche enthusiasts who are already inclined to buy it.
Furthermore quite a few car enthusiasts have mused that we really don't need cars like the Viper fun as they are. The most notable of those enthusiasts that I've heard offer this opinion was David E. Davis Jr. when he was in charge of Automobile Magazine. I forget the issue year but it was a few years back when the McClaren was being produced. One of the lines went something like, "does the world really need another 200+mph supercar? There are damn few tracks in the world that can safely manage these speeds let alone public roadways." (I'm paraphrasing of course but that was the gist) No one, least of all I disputes that these superhorsepower cars are fun. Three weeks ago in fact, I drove my first 550hp car in the form of a Lamborghini Diablo and it was enormously fun, but the limits of that car are so high that it curbed the enjoyment level somewhat. With most cars it's quite apparent when you're approaching it and your limits. Not so with the Diablo and I wasn't keen on finding out how small the yellow zone between control and loss of control is. As much as that particular car can do (and I'm sure others like it) it's very easy to get in over your head in a hurry. By the way, I live nearby a Ferrari bodyshop and you'd be surprised how many banged up 360's and F50's are coming in. Repeatedly.
Anyway you also mistook my comment, "it's bad enough what the population is driving right now" I wasn't commenting on anyone but Americans. We really don't need 300 hp power cars even but I drive one and I break almost every speed law there is daily to enjoy what I spend my money on. It's absolutely silly that I drive it and I recognize my behavior as such. I have and do travel extensively and am well aware of what the rest of the world drives and what their opinions about us are.
As for your worry about restrictions and sameness are concerned that particular log jam is coming down the pike anyway. Not today or tomorrow but it's inevitable. No one has to restrict what you're driving because ones own choices in life and income do that nicely enough for now. I'm not of the opinion that manufacturers are doing any of what they do for our safety or concern. They do it because they need to stay in business (and out of legal trouble) and our collective human behavior dictates that there'd better be something new and improved before we plunk our hard earned cash down on whatever it is.
My 3 cents.
K
01-15-2002, 07:47 PM
#18
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Kaz,
I agree with you that the day is coming when restrictions will be placed on what we can drive and how. I just don't want to hasten that day!
I don't mean to misinterpret your comments, but it sounds as though you object to SUVs as a concept ("I simply don't care for SUVs"). For my part, I don't object to the concept but I do find fault with the execution of it in most cases. I'm guessing Porsche will build a vehicle that holds true to their principles and standards and IF they do there will be a market for the relatively small number of Cayennes they need to sell to be profitable, although I realize you disagree.
FWIW, I can see myself in the market for this type of vehicle in a year or two. If the Cayenne doesn't meet expectations, I would probably buy the Audi allroad that you mentioned. Again, until we see it and feel it, we're debating in a vacuum, and I will reserve final judgement until then. In any event, thanks for the discussion....
Mike
I agree with you that the day is coming when restrictions will be placed on what we can drive and how. I just don't want to hasten that day!
I don't mean to misinterpret your comments, but it sounds as though you object to SUVs as a concept ("I simply don't care for SUVs"). For my part, I don't object to the concept but I do find fault with the execution of it in most cases. I'm guessing Porsche will build a vehicle that holds true to their principles and standards and IF they do there will be a market for the relatively small number of Cayennes they need to sell to be profitable, although I realize you disagree.
FWIW, I can see myself in the market for this type of vehicle in a year or two. If the Cayenne doesn't meet expectations, I would probably buy the Audi allroad that you mentioned. Again, until we see it and feel it, we're debating in a vacuum, and I will reserve final judgement until then. In any event, thanks for the discussion....
Mike
01-16-2002, 12:25 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
Originally posted by Kaz:
<STRONG>Furthermore quite a few car enthusiasts have mused that we really don't need cars like the Viper fun as they are. The most notable of those enthusiasts that I've heard offer this opinion was David E. Davis Jr. when he was in charge of Automobile Magazine. I forget the issue year but it was a few years back when the Mclaren was being produced. One of the lines went something like, "does the world really need another 200+mph supercar? There are damn few tracks in the world that can safely manage these speeds let alone public roadways."</STRONG>
<STRONG>Furthermore quite a few car enthusiasts have mused that we really don't need cars like the Viper fun as they are. The most notable of those enthusiasts that I've heard offer this opinion was David E. Davis Jr. when he was in charge of Automobile Magazine. I forget the issue year but it was a few years back when the Mclaren was being produced. One of the lines went something like, "does the world really need another 200+mph supercar? There are damn few tracks in the world that can safely manage these speeds let alone public roadways."</STRONG>
It's amusing that, not long after this statement was made, good old David E bought himself a Dodge Viper...
01-16-2002, 06:07 PM
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Reading this strip provides a great debate of many sides of the issue.
I guess I have to give this thing a shot. But, if there is no boot to fit dogs, and it's another glorified 4 door SNUV sport(non-utility) vechile, then I will give it a resounding two thumbs down.
Porsche could have made a better, cheaper and faster decision to build off Audi's A6 Avant platform, and had the best estate in the world - with money left to go racing...
I guess I have to give this thing a shot. But, if there is no boot to fit dogs, and it's another glorified 4 door SNUV sport(non-utility) vechile, then I will give it a resounding two thumbs down.
Porsche could have made a better, cheaper and faster decision to build off Audi's A6 Avant platform, and had the best estate in the world - with money left to go racing...
01-30-2002, 10:43 AM
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The way I see it, Porsche won't really succeed in selling Cayenne to it's current customer base. Many of us feel that an SUV is not a match for the impulses that drove us to buy a Porsche in the first place. But if the economy rebounds, they will be successful in expanding their customer base into the same segment, no offense intended, that has made the Boxster so successful. It is a status customer play, pure and simple. In just the same manner that the Mercedes SUV is an SUV that makes no sense, yet sells anyway. I see the M class all over the place, and shake my head in wonder every time. I think the big variable is the US economy. If things rebound, Porsche will be able to sell the numbers they want to hit (much less ambitious than Jeep wants to do per year...).
If it keeps the company alive, so be it. I do want to see what their next performace car will be, since I sometimes feel that the 911 body style feels a little played out. If I could get Carerra GT lite for $90K, that would be a good thing. Rest assured, I won't hold any one here responsible for meeting the Cayenne's sales targets.....
If it keeps the company alive, so be it. I do want to see what their next performace car will be, since I sometimes feel that the 911 body style feels a little played out. If I could get Carerra GT lite for $90K, that would be a good thing. Rest assured, I won't hold any one here responsible for meeting the Cayenne's sales targets.....
01-30-2002, 07:22 PM
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MPM '95 C4,-
Nice mix of cars you have; Audi's and a C4.
Are you aware of the Audi RS6 4.2V8tt Avant which will debut next month at the Geneva Salon? The Cayenne will be there too.
Question is, will AoA get the 4.2V8tt cars to NA swift enough to compete with the PCA offering too. Often the NA Audi and Porsche dealerships are one and the same as you know.I'll be attending the Geneva Expo and forward details as I see-um.
Nice mix of cars you have; Audi's and a C4.
Are you aware of the Audi RS6 4.2V8tt Avant which will debut next month at the Geneva Salon? The Cayenne will be there too.
Question is, will AoA get the 4.2V8tt cars to NA swift enough to compete with the PCA offering too. Often the NA Audi and Porsche dealerships are one and the same as you know.I'll be attending the Geneva Expo and forward details as I see-um.
01-30-2002, 10:51 PM
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Mike,
Thanks...it was almost an S6 (ordered, arrived, driven, and sadly said goodbye). The dear bride didn't feel the performance premimum was worth it for her. After a couple of weeks in the allroad, I think she is right - love the trick suspension and the bulldog tough looks. And that $25K difference will help put my ultimate TT in my garage.
We've been hearing tons of rumors about a 4.2tt, as shown in the Avantismo concept, but no real proof. Everyone on AudiWorld is speculating on the new S4 gettting a V8 stuffed into it.
Make sure you take lots of pictures...
Thanks...it was almost an S6 (ordered, arrived, driven, and sadly said goodbye). The dear bride didn't feel the performance premimum was worth it for her. After a couple of weeks in the allroad, I think she is right - love the trick suspension and the bulldog tough looks. And that $25K difference will help put my ultimate TT in my garage.
We've been hearing tons of rumors about a 4.2tt, as shown in the Avantismo concept, but no real proof. Everyone on AudiWorld is speculating on the new S4 gettting a V8 stuffed into it.
Make sure you take lots of pictures...
01-31-2002, 09:59 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Craig Green:
<strong>In just the same manner that the Mercedes SUV is an SUV that makes no sense, yet sells anyway. I see the M class all over the place, and shake my head in wonder every time. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I've heard from friends who own the Mercedes SUV that the residuals on these cars have plummeted. I don't pretend to know the reason, but the interior build quality is pretty poor, and even the top-of-the-line ML55 AMG handling pales compared to the X5, according to many reports. It's a Mercedes without the qualities that have made Mercedes famous.
I'm not an SUV type, but suspect that the success or failure of the Cayenne might have more to do with its true merits and "Porsche-ness" than with the fact that it's an SUV. If they can make an SUV that is truly "bulletproof" and handles like nobody's business both on- and off-road, then my hat's off.
This seems like a tall engineering feat to accomplish, but I sure hope that Porsche pulls it off. They've definitely got the talent.
<strong>In just the same manner that the Mercedes SUV is an SUV that makes no sense, yet sells anyway. I see the M class all over the place, and shake my head in wonder every time. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I've heard from friends who own the Mercedes SUV that the residuals on these cars have plummeted. I don't pretend to know the reason, but the interior build quality is pretty poor, and even the top-of-the-line ML55 AMG handling pales compared to the X5, according to many reports. It's a Mercedes without the qualities that have made Mercedes famous.
I'm not an SUV type, but suspect that the success or failure of the Cayenne might have more to do with its true merits and "Porsche-ness" than with the fact that it's an SUV. If they can make an SUV that is truly "bulletproof" and handles like nobody's business both on- and off-road, then my hat's off.
This seems like a tall engineering feat to accomplish, but I sure hope that Porsche pulls it off. They've definitely got the talent.
01-31-2002, 11:23 PM
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I'm with you Anir - we considered the M class, but you are right on with the M interior (and also true with the new "C") it is cheap, cheap, cheap...
Me think too much Dodge is going into Benz...
Me think too much Dodge is going into Benz...
02-04-2002, 04:21 PM
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as i see it, the porsche suv thing allows for two things: a. a way into the "suv" market (because it's really a car, and not a truck, just like the x5, which was NEVER meant to go off-road), and b. r & d for a future water-cooled, front-engined car later on.
are we forgetting the mercedes g-wagen? forget the m-class, the g-class is 90% off road.
are we forgetting the mercedes g-wagen? forget the m-class, the g-class is 90% off road.
