jlturpin

Long story Short......... 05 CTT, 1 Tank of bad fuel apparently Phase Separation, Closest Dealer 150 miles away. Vehicle condition, inoperable.



Dilemma, what if any damage caused to internal fuel system components such as filter, pumps, lines, injectors and piston crowns and cylinder walls by 10% Ethanol Separation, I know this sounds crazy, read on. Major Damage caused to right headlamp from few drops being spilled while obtaining sample. Headlamp lens deeply etched on areas of contact. Not sure if paint finish is damaged, or if any fuel even touched bumper or header panel area. It was getting dark, and I was tired from an afternoon of arguing with the owner of the fuel company when I discovered the damage to headlamp. Yes I am 100% sure it was caused by spillage of contaminated fuel. See the lamp in photo taken at 1st sample, no damage. This is the area that is no etched, looks like the top layer(s) of plastic melted and reset with major pitting.

I refueled today at a locally owned Fuel station. It is not associated with any of the big oil companies, and I am trying to be as fair as possible. I got a tank, yes full tank of 93 octane fuel. It does have the "May contain up to 10% Ethanol" label on the pump as do all of the stations I know of in my area. As soon as I pull away from the pump I started feeling issues. I made it less than 1 mile before the truck would barely run. I nursed it home thinking I had bad fuel pump. It did cross my mind that it was the fuel but the Cayenne exhibited the same symptoms and driveability issues that I had in a previous Cayenne when I lost my Left fuel pump. It came on sudden and I had just refueled from empty, so the secondary fuel pump would have been running. After refuel, the primary (left) fuel pump would have taken back over since more than 1/4 tank of fuel was present.

Hooked up my fuel injector system tester. Ran diagnostics per WSM, and verified pressure and volume on both pumps. 4 bar pressure and volume over spec on both pumps. When I pushed the button on my tester to get a sample of fuel in a clear container, it appeared very murky. I set it to the side and continued my diagnostics. Within a few minutes I had full separation. Called the Gas Station and began conversation with owner. Even though I was certain that the contaminated fuel in my tank was a result of the fill up, the station owner was not. At first he was not so interested until I told him that I had a sample. He told me about the technology of the pumps filter system to not allow water in dispensed fuel and so on. Several phone calls later and finally a trip to his office with 3 gallons of the fuel and a sample in a clear bottle where separation was obvious. He had sent one of his employees to the station to get a sample. It was in a white 5 gallon bucket, and he used that as his example to show me there was no contamination. He used a stick with some goo on it to show me a clean stick after he submerged it in the bucket and explained that water would not have looked this way. I asked what if it is not water. Both people present from the station looked at me like I was crazy and asked what else could it be. He poured the buckets contents into another container, and when he got to the bottom of the bucket, there it was. Attitude changed and he said he would take care of the tow, repair etc.

So, Industry best practices say to drain the fuel system and refill with Gasoline containing Ethanol to absorb any moisture left. WSM lays out the procedure pretty straight forward as to draining the fuel system. I don't have the factory special tools, but have special tools to accomplish the connections to the fuel pump and lines. I do not have the factory fuel recovery system, but have plenty of fuel hose to discard the fuel into a drum. Not sure if I can activate the fuel pumps with durametric, but can build a simple bridge harness to connect to the two fuel relay connections in the electrical panel with a switch to activate both pumps.

My concern is any damage, that may have been caused by whatever is in the fuel. I will see if I can determine the pH. Whatever it is, is nasty with only a few drops causing the damage to the headlamp lens. I don't even know if I sand it, that I can get a clear area to polish out. The employee said that the owner would replace the headlamp, I don't think he has any idea of the cost of a replacement headlamp. Should I be concerned about internal fuel system components such as pumps, filter, lines, injectors? If any of it made it into the cylinders from a leaky injector, should I be concerned about cylinder wall scoring or damage to the piston? I have never seen anything like this stuff. Should I send it to a lab to have it looked at? Do I pull the injectors and send them out for cleaning and flow testing?

What does a dealer get for fuel system drain? I have a full shop, and tools to do this but am not doing it for free. If I send it to the dealer, it will be a 150+ mile 1 way trip on a flatbed. If I send it to the independent, 50+ mile 1 way. I am sure that either will be costly. I will be without the Cayenne for several days or longer depending on which route. I then have to find someone to take me to pick it up at either location. I just want to be fair to the local small business owner, but I don't see this working out when he gets the bill. Just some ball park numbers, shot in the dark guesses on cost if I send it to dealer for repair. Not counting the 5 hours I have in it from this afternoon, trouble shooting, getting fuel sample, OBD II scanning and clearing codes, all with professional tools I own and dealing with proving it was caused from the gas I bought. Long afternoon.

Any help and advice on dealing with this would be greatly appreciated. Maybe there is really nothing to this and I am over thinking it, and it really is not that much money to send it out for repair. Has service life of fuel system components been compromised?

$200 Tow
$200 Fuel System Drain
$100 Refuel
$900 Headlamp
$??? Fuel Disposal
$300 Fuel Filter and Labor?

Any adds, deletes or corrections to the above list?

Jonathan

mcbit

I would certainly have the fuel analysed and I think it would help your case enormously if yoou could find anyone with similar problems after filling up at the same gas station.

mhead

Startron Fuel additive works well in boats prevents the phase separation and clean fuel system. You may try Stabil, Marine version, as well. This is a somewhat common issue in boats as they tend to sit idle for long periods and they are also subject to high humidity and instances where in tank condensation creates issues for high pressure direct injection engines.

s4for5

Tow it in, maybe you can get a loaner from the dealer.
Send sample out for analysis then decide how much needs to be replaced.
Document everything, maybe even call the local tv\news station to put some pressure on the vendor.
Even mentioning that to the vendor may speed up his cooperation.
The time you already spent troubleshooting? Forgetaboutit
Good luck, keep us posted.

jlturpin

Thanks for the responses. I will certainly be looking into an additive to help prevent phase separation, but from what I read last night, nothing can fix it since the ethanol has absorbed enough water to fall out of suspension.

I really doubt if the dealer will know more than I do, and they certainly don't if they will spend the time to determine possible long term damage.

I am not going to call the local television stations. If the owner would have continued trying to say I could not prove it was caused his fuel, that was very high on my list. He has agreed to cover the repairs, I just want to be fair, but at the same time get my cayenne repaired properly. I was hoping someone here had a similar experience.

Petemcman

Hi I am in the same position at the moment, I Put £50.00 worth of unleaded in my car on the 12.01.17 and the car broke down immediately on the forecourt.

I had it towed to the garage where they changed the MAF filter throttle body and the car still wouldn't start, I insisted that that it is something to do with the fuel, so they drained all the fuel out and ran the car from a separate container and the car fired up straight away but was still spluttering alot.

They then changed the fuel filter which slightly improved it but still wasn't right, they then added some fuel additive to try and flush the system through and this made things worse.

The mechanic then removed the fuel pump relay and said the car wouldn't start so he suspects that it is the fuel pump but doesnt want to do this as he isn't 100% sure so he has recommended i take it to the dealer to get some proper diagnostics on it.

I was just wondering if there is a foolproof way of determining if it is the pump and what sort of pressure should the pump kick out when working correctly i think he said it is currently running at about 3 bar.

My car is the a 2004 Cayenne S 3.2 V6, any ideas anyone, thanks in advance

deilenberger

Search will be your friend on this. There are LOTS of fuel pump related threads here. Short version: Your truck has two fuel pumps. It can run on either one provided there is fuel around the pump. You can test the pumps quite simply by pulling the fuses to them one at a time. That entire test procedure is written up here someplace. They are not an uncommon or inexpensive failure (although some VW Tourag pumps are interchangeable and will save some $$.) At least one pump will run continuously when the engine is running, they don't "kick out" at a certain pressure.

Again - spend some time search and reading. The answer is out there (or here..)

moosehead

As a long time boater in a similar and common situation with older ethanol sitting in hibernation over several months, the marine approach is to add Stabil to tank and drain it immediately, replace fuel filter, and then run the vehicle with non-ethanol high octane fuel. If truly ADD, replace fuel filter a second time after running good fuel.

Note that most marine engines are GM blocks with marine water cooling systems retrofitted, so YMMV in terms of Porsche's higher tolerance fuel systems and whatnot.

A cheap fluid extractor (Mityvac or other) is available at most auto stores or Wallyworld for under $100 and comes with various size hoses that you should be able to snake down into the bottom of the tank.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/39586964?...&wl13=&veh=sem

Good luck and let us know how she goes.

jlturpin

It has been years since this happened to me. If it sat that long with the seperated fuel in the lines, in contact with the injector, you may have one or more stuck injectors. I am pretty sure its supposed to run 5 bar. Also, i drained my system by using durametric to enable fuel pump and attached fuel pressure gauge with a drain tube button. It is a Snap On gauge set. I did change the filter also. Keep in mind there are two sides to the tank. The 2nd fuel pump is also used to transfer fuel from one side to the other if memory serves me. On the Turbo it is also used at full throttle for additional flow. Hope this helps. If the tech understands tge basics and can read the service manual, it may take a little time, but it's pretty straight forward. Once up and running, use a few cans of Lubro Moly fuel system cleaner. Feel free to contact me if I can help.

Petemcman

Just a quick question? If the new throttle body that has been put on hasn't been configured correctly would that cause the car to splutter? I don't think the mechanic has the correct stuff to reprogram the throttle body. Thank in Advance Pete

Dilberto

Sounds like all the sediment solids at the bottom of the tank got stirred-up and made it's way thru the fuel system....You'll need a few bottles of Gumout Regane Polyether Amide(PEA).

touareg

Is this what happens when ethanol fuel is sitting to long in the holding tanks? Also the reason I hear you should always go to a station that has frequent turnover?