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I have a question, I'm looking at a 2008 Turbo and I see that the Dealership replaced a thermostat at about 24k miles. What are the odds that they would have replaced the coolant pipes at the same time? Or would a thermostat replacement be much simpler than the coolant pipes?
Thanks for any input.
'08 Model year should already have metal pipes in engine valley. I am not sure what they do on small turbo tees. But they have the other problem mentioned which is glued barb fitting on rear coolant engine manifold!
In some ways tougher job to fix, ...if you do it right. I have heard some people "pinning" this barb in (set screw) to prevent it blowing out and loosing all your coolant in seconds. this of course may not prevent smaller leaks as the glue degrades over time. Porsche should have threaded this fitting in.
Well. add me to the "pre-emptive fix" club. I knew when I bought my 05 CTT back in March that it needed to be done. Got the kit back in May or June. Spent the summer looking at the box of parts waiting for them to install themselves (didn't happen).
So Tuesday, I started. Followed the writeups on Pelican and the stuff in this thread. Straightforward, but involved.
Ended up snapping some of the plastic stuff. The T at the back of the motor where the thin tube that comes off the PCV was first. Ended up snapping the other 2 arms of the T trying to get it out of the rubber tubes at the back. Got a new T and a foot of fuel line. Cut the thin tube going to the PCV back and ran the fuel line up to it. Broke 2 of the oil breather lines (that accordion style plastic looks like it should flex some, but it just breaks). Ended up breaking the PCV where it crosses the front of the manifold too. When I found out how much they cost (the short one that runs from the breather to the intake is $95 for OEM from ECS, $117 from the dealer), I decided to figure out something. The "crusty old guy" at AZ came up with a brake booster line (provides vacuum to the brake master) that just fit over the plastic. I cut two inch sections and put hose clamps on to seal it. Looks like crap, but hey - It's not duct tape.
The water line on the front of the thermostat housing was stuck pretty good. The steel flange had "galvanized" itself to the aluminum housing. A few hits with a punch broke it loose, a bit of heat on the housing let it pop out.
The pipes that were in there were definitely on borrowed time. I used a right angle hook tool to loosen up the hoses on the fittings (shove the point under the edge of the hose and wiggle it to break the seal). The radiator hoses and two of the three plastic pipes came off the way they should have. The bigger plastic (on the right as seen from the front) didn't. I shoved the point in and levered just a bit (no more than on the others) and punched right through the pipe. After I got them all the way out, I could take my thumb and forefinger and snap chunks off the end. I don't know how much longer they would have lasted, but I'd bet on "not until spring."
The Coolant T at the back beat me. I spent a good amount of time and couldn't even get the clamp off the upper "arm" of the T. Gave up and used my "Phone A Friend" option. He runs a shop, mostly big diesels. He was doing a service call a few miles away and came over after he was done. He spent 2 hours removing and replacing the T. I don't know how long it would have taken me. I'm paying him both time and "on-site service call" costs, but it's worth it. He's a good friend and I'm happy to have him available.
The starter has been slow for a while. The PO had the dealer look at it, and they replaced the battery - with no change (big surprise there). Sometimes, it just clicks. Turning the key off and trying again has worked so far. My mechanic friend knows about this and asked if I was planning on replacing it. He said something like " You know the starter is on the way out. Do you want to do this again in a year or two?" That's an easy "No." So it's got a new starter. The difference in cranking speed is significant. It was easy to do with everything else out. I'd hate to have to do it as a "stand alone" job.
Reassembly went pretty smooth, other than breaking the breather hose (I had broken one without realizing it during disassembly) and dropping one of the W/P pulley bolts (it now has 2 torx and one allen).
Buttoned everything back up, looked it over very carefully, put the fuel pump fuses back in and (after a quick prayer) fired it up. I wanted to make sure it ran before I put the coolant back in. Ran it for a minute or so, sounded good, shut it down.
Added the coolant (had a "Low Coolant" light during initial startup), and it took most of what I had drained. Started it up and ran it. Added the rest of what I had drained, and it's still at "Full". I had spilled some, so I've got bubbles somewhere. I've run it up to temp (took it for a few errands too). Oil and coolant temp up to normal, no noises, no huge puddles, no overwhelming smells or clouds of steam.
There was a bit of a drip when I parked on an uphill, and a bit of a smell of coolant. I think (hope?) that it's just the bit that I spilled that's dripping off the rear undertray and boiling off the engine. If it persists more than a day or so... I don't want to think about that.
So, overall it was a big job. Three and a half days. The T at the back beat me. The pipes were not long for this world. But it was certainly doable. I'm no expert, just a guy with a bunch of tools and a bit of experience. Without the writeups, I would have been lost. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.
TL/DR - Changed my pipes before they blew. But not by much - They were very brittle and weak. Did the starter at the same time.
Warning to folks still needing to replace coolant pipes on 955 Cayenne, I purchased the Hamburg-Technic (cheaper option package) from ESC Tuning ES#2771560. Had an independent shop install, didn't catch a casting flaw in the triple pipes. The leak never appeared for a while due to being at the hose connection location.
Very costly to re-do and get OEM pipes installed. ESC does not cover labor just parts refund
.
Flaw in casting, Hamburg Technic are an Asian based manufacturer
Since I recently did this job it is fresh in my mind.
Hard to believe that small casting air pocket can cause a leak on a rubber hose connection barb. I could see if it was on the section where the o-rings are, then that would surely be a problem.
For instance the section close to the barb on your image looks clean and that is where the hose clamp should be fitted - just behind the barb not all the way at end of the hose where the imperfection in casting is.
Furthermore this section of the aluminum casting does not even get the hose fitted down that far. This section is just for the 2-part plastic bridge clamp!
See:
With plastic bridge on:
Even if the hose clamp was directly over this section the rubber hose should deform enough to seal here. Which is impossible since the plastic bridge clamp goes there.
I doubt this is source of your "leak". More likely something else was missed (hose clamp forgotten) or the ports not cleaned properly when re-assembling new pipes. I would ask them to put this aluminum pipe back in and make sure it is not a problem on the other end where o-rings are and all hose clamps are re-installed. Pressure test before re-assembling intake manifold. Be nice and pay them for their time, just do not go back there again once it is corrected.
I considered purchasing the Hamburg Technik version also but was more concerned about 3 pipe spacing being in-line with ports in the thermostat housing. If these were off much and had to be forced in, then that would be a concern for leaking on the o-rings eventually.
In my opinion, having done this job myself, it is not a job for an independent shop unless they have done this job before. It is very hard to do this job cost-effectively if you are not familiar with this particular car/job. It is definately a Dealer job where they have one or two techs who get these when they come in. Then it is profitable. Otherwise it is not. Likewise when you do the job yourself you will spend far more time (free - labor of love) making sure fittings are cleaned properly and all the screws are back in. Don't you (fellow shade tree mechanics) hate it when you get your car back from service and find a screw missing here or there next time you work on it? I know I would not have left that screw out!
Thanks...I feel that I had a reputable shop with lots of prior experience preform this work...they have never seen this before either (30 plus Cayenne's). I would highly recommend getting the work done at Porsche now though...unless you (like yourself) are very skilled with the technical challenges of doing a turbo. I was very discouraged by ECS Tunings lack of concern for selling a visibly noted defective product, described in details on webpage "This kit contains pipes from Hamburg-Technic, which many consider to have better castings than the genuine Porsche pipes." I would be one to disagree, and also would argue this as being false advertising on their part. There is a bit of a cost between their assembled kit and OEM kit, but small when considering that the work cost me more than double of what I originally had in mind for this work. That being said the vehicle is in excellent condition, and I have the confidence now that I will never have to deal with the "coolant pipe defect", and hopefully will get many more years of use & driving enjoyment out of it.
If the Shop did not replace the coolant tees on your cayenne turbo you may have another repair ahead of you:
Search this forum for other postings related to turbo tes and you should find images of broken tees with more stories of coolant purge woes.
The image from your pipes does not look like the problem lies with the pipes. While the casting does not look like it is finished well, file marks and machining marks on the smooth section of the barb, it is more likely something else that caused your leaks.
Warning to folks still needing to replace coolant pipes on 955 Cayenne, I purchased the Hamburg-Technic (cheaper option package) from ESC Tuning ES#2771560. Had an independent shop install, didn't catch a casting flaw in the triple pipes. The leak never appeared for a while due to being at the hose connection location.
Very costly to re-do and get OEM pipes installed. ESC does not cover labor just parts refund
.
Flaw in casting, Hamburg Technic are an Asian based manufacturer
Right around the beginning of this year, we saw a handful of these pipes with pinhole leaks. The manufacturer was notified and the casting process was updated (production stopped for about 2 months). The rest of that batch of pipes were scrapped and now every pipe is pressure-tested prior to shipping. If you bought your pipe after January of this year, please let me know so I can look into it. As far as I was aware, there had been no issues since then.
I am very sorry to hear about your issue.
If the Shop did not replace the coolant tees on your cayenne turbo you may have another repair ahead of you:
Search this forum for other postings related to turbo tes and you should find images of broken tees with more stories of coolant purge woes.
The image from your pipes does not look like the problem lies with the pipes. While the casting does not look like it is finished well, file marks and machining marks on the smooth section of the barb, it is more likely something else that caused your leaks.
If you look very closely their is a large pin hole in the pipe, around the hose connection, pressure tested good, but leaked when running at normal engine temp. Got the other pipes in the kit and did the switch to aluminum tees like you did. The shop had to take the air plenum off three times to fix this leak.
If you look very closely their is a large pin hole in the pipe, around the hose connection, pressure tested good, but leaked when running at normal engine temp. Got the other pipes in the kit and did the switch to aluminum tees like you did. The shop had to take the air plenum off three times to fix this leak.
Not a good thing that the casting is porous enough to leak. It appeared from your image that defect was only on the surface. I thought based on your original posting that leak was from hose connection on this area.
You should be able to test by blowing compressed air into it while holding ends closed and looking for small signs of leaks. Or even just filling with water and holding your hand over the bottom pipe. Strange why it would only leak at engine temperature and not when pressure tested? Well in any case, good you finally got it sorted out and had the tees done as well!
My new kit just arrived from Paragon and I'm planning on installing this Saturday.
Few questions...
Is the vent pipe 948 106 016 03 supposed to be plastic?
The pipes arrived in boxes with Porsche #s on them. 948 106 049 07 and 948 106 059 06; however, the pipes have no numbers or markings at all on them. I'm guessing knock off Topaz? They don't appear to be the Hamburg Technic as the o-rings are black.
Lastly, no section of hose for the large pipe coupling. Not real happy about that. I assume this is just a standard section of hose.
'08 Model year should already have metal pipes in engine valley.
For the 957, they still used plastic pipes. The solution is a thicker plastic and a single pipe. The updated P/N is a metal unit.
I'm in the middle of this job right now. A failed thermostat prompted the work. While doing the job, I found the thermostat collar had a small leak at the t-stat housing interface and coolant was seeping onto the engine valley. So now I'm doing the t-stat, collar, t-stat housing, coolant pipe, water pump and will JB weld the barb on the rear coolant bridge.
I'm still shocked about how many coolant connections are present on this engine. Every connection interface is a potential for failure or leakage.
For the 957, they still used plastic pipes. The solution is a thicker plastic and a single pipe. The updated P/N is a metal unit.
I'm in the middle of this job right now. A failed thermostat prompted the work. While doing the job, I found the thermostat collar had a small leak at the t-stat housing interface and coolant was seeping onto the engine valley. So now I'm doing the t-stat, collar, t-stat housing, coolant pipe, water pump and will JB weld the barb on the rear coolant bridge.
I'm still shocked about how many coolant connections are present on this engine. Every connection interface is a potential for failure or leakage.
Was the upper triple pipe still present and is it aluminum on yours and the lower large pipe still plastic? Can you take some images so people can see what to expect?
I will try to shoot some pix. After re-reading my post, I wasn't clear in my description. The factory shipped the cars with a single coolant pipe in plastic. The updated part is a metallic unit.
On the 2008-2010 Cayennes (957) there is no triple tube set like the 2003-2006 (955).
10-13-2015, 08:19 PM
08 pipes
