HELP! (please) - 2004 Cayenne S with dead engine - coolant in the oil
09-08-2009, 02:52 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
HELP! (please) - 2004 Cayenne S with dead engine - coolant in the oil
My brother-in-law's Cayenne recently stranded him 170 miles from home, and I'm hoping someone out there has some advice on how to proceed with this.
The car is a 2004 Cayenne S with 45k miles. No significant problems until now. Serviced regularly.
Bought from the local Porsche dealer in late 2007 with 35K miles.
Last service (done by owner): Oil change at 44,075 miles on 7/17/09. Also flushed brake lines and replaced power steering fluid. No apparent problems until the breakdown 4 days ago.
Summary of breakdown:
- 70 miles into the return leg of a trip, on the freeway, at speed.
- Noticed fluttering sound from front of vehicle. Slowed down and stopped on shoulder of highway.
- "Add coolant" message appeared after stopping, but before turning off ignition (engine was idling at the time).
- Checked coolant reservior for coolant level - clean fluid was visible but only at the very bottom of the reservior. At least a couple of quarts below where it should be.
- Checked oil dipstick - seems to be a mixture of oil and another substance (I'm guessing coolant). Also the level was _very_ high on dipstick, well above max mark.
- No visible external fluid leaks anywhere
- Tried to start engine, starter just clicked. Vehicle took a long flatbed ride to home.
- Removed a few things for inspection: Coolant was visible in rubber tubes between "Y" pipe and mass air flow sensors. Strong coolant smell in "y" pipe. Changed coolant-soaked air filters (coolant must have blown all the way back there somehow!), replacing with the previously removed ones.
- 11 error codes from OBD II: P0011, P0300, P0307, P0304, P0302, P0139, P0159, P2138, P2127, P0112
- The car is out of warranty now.
Questions:
Any ideas?
Any more tests we can do, e.g., to see if the engine is seized, etc.
Should we drain the oil? Will the coolant-in-the-oil (we presume) cause problems just by sitting there?
Any advice on approaching the dealer for goodwill? Have an indy check it first? Contact Porsche first?
Thanks in advance for any help.
The car is a 2004 Cayenne S with 45k miles. No significant problems until now. Serviced regularly.
Bought from the local Porsche dealer in late 2007 with 35K miles.
Last service (done by owner): Oil change at 44,075 miles on 7/17/09. Also flushed brake lines and replaced power steering fluid. No apparent problems until the breakdown 4 days ago.
Summary of breakdown:
- 70 miles into the return leg of a trip, on the freeway, at speed.
- Noticed fluttering sound from front of vehicle. Slowed down and stopped on shoulder of highway.
- "Add coolant" message appeared after stopping, but before turning off ignition (engine was idling at the time).
- Checked coolant reservior for coolant level - clean fluid was visible but only at the very bottom of the reservior. At least a couple of quarts below where it should be.
- Checked oil dipstick - seems to be a mixture of oil and another substance (I'm guessing coolant). Also the level was _very_ high on dipstick, well above max mark.
- No visible external fluid leaks anywhere
- Tried to start engine, starter just clicked. Vehicle took a long flatbed ride to home.
- Removed a few things for inspection: Coolant was visible in rubber tubes between "Y" pipe and mass air flow sensors. Strong coolant smell in "y" pipe. Changed coolant-soaked air filters (coolant must have blown all the way back there somehow!), replacing with the previously removed ones.
- 11 error codes from OBD II: P0011, P0300, P0307, P0304, P0302, P0139, P0159, P2138, P2127, P0112
- The car is out of warranty now.
Questions:
Any ideas?
Any more tests we can do, e.g., to see if the engine is seized, etc.
Should we drain the oil? Will the coolant-in-the-oil (we presume) cause problems just by sitting there?
Any advice on approaching the dealer for goodwill? Have an indy check it first? Contact Porsche first?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Last edited by oldskewel; 09-09-2009 at 02:22 AM.
09-08-2009, 09:01 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Other info:
all fluids checked prior to the trip (~300 miles prior to the failure)
although we think we have coolant in the oil, we don't see any oil in the coolant reservoir. Maybe we should drain both and check to be sure.
09-08-2009, 09:43 PM
#5
Moderator !x4
Just guessing
P0300 engine misfire detect
P0307, Misfire Cylinder 7, bank 2
P0304, Misfire Cylinder 4, bank 1
P0302, Misfire Cylinder 2, Bank 1
P0139, O2 sensor aging
P0159, O2 sensor aging
P2138, Throttle Sensor
P2127, Throttle Sensor
P0112, Throttle Sensor
DME needs to be checked with PIWIS
Coils and plugs replace
Coolant Pipes
$$
P0300 engine misfire detect
P0307, Misfire Cylinder 7, bank 2
P0304, Misfire Cylinder 4, bank 1
P0302, Misfire Cylinder 2, Bank 1
P0139, O2 sensor aging
P0159, O2 sensor aging
P2138, Throttle Sensor
P2127, Throttle Sensor
P0112, Throttle Sensor
DME needs to be checked with PIWIS
Coils and plugs replace
Coolant Pipes
$$
09-08-2009, 10:32 PM
#6
Pepper Bartender
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Your brother-in-law: "Hi Dealer, my last service was done by moi!"
Dealer (PCNA) response: "Your amateur attempts to service the car have resulted in a large profit center opportunity for us (our dealer)."
Your brother-in-law: "The manf. warranty date is long since past and I didn't buy an extended warranty (or I bought one from onesourceautowarranty.com --- see forum keyword: Hawaii 5-0)"
Dealer (PCNA) response: "Your attempt to reduce our profits by not buying an extended warranty from us (our dealer) have resulted in a large profit center opportunity for PCNA."
Your brother-in-law: I wish I had read rennlist Cayenne forum posts on Alpha/Beta models before my purchase.
Certain person in the afterlife: ROFLMAO
p.s. I suggest he head to the dealership but as a good in-law prepare him for a Porsche rectal exam of gi-normous proportions. Sorry. But Beta or Alpha ownership without extended warranties are either of two extremes. Zip, zero, nada issues or High $$$ issues.
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09-09-2009, 12:08 AM
#8
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Lifetime Member
Thanks for the input, but this is not likely unless the temp gauge also failed. There was no indication of the engine being overheated before or after pulling off the road.
Other info:
all fluids checked prior to the trip (~300 miles prior to the failure)
although we think we have coolant in the oil, we don't see any oil in the coolant reservoir. Maybe we should drain both and check to be sure.
Other info:
all fluids checked prior to the trip (~300 miles prior to the failure)
although we think we have coolant in the oil, we don't see any oil in the coolant reservoir. Maybe we should drain both and check to be sure.
In any case, coolant in oil typically can only be caused by:
(1). Blown head gasket
(2). Oil/coolant heat exchanger failure (not every car have this)
(3). Improperly tighten head bolts (typically this will happen within 1000 miles of a new engine)
... I think that's all....
09-09-2009, 01:24 AM
#9
Having been out of warranty doesn't always result in something bad from Porsche. Our "collector" CTT "you hear that Lewis," has been out of warranty for almost 2 years now, some issues came up and dealer still took care of it with no problems being trim pieces and airbags!
Failed engines seem to be rare story's around here so it may give your brother-in-law some ground since it has under 50k on the clock.
I would imagine if Porsche knows of an issue they cover majority of the cost.
We're going in tomorrow for the updated coolant tubes even with 18k on the clock, I don't trust those plastic tubes accross the desert.
Keep us updated!
Failed engines seem to be rare story's around here so it may give your brother-in-law some ground since it has under 50k on the clock.
I would imagine if Porsche knows of an issue they cover majority of the cost.
We're going in tomorrow for the updated coolant tubes even with 18k on the clock, I don't trust those plastic tubes accross the desert.
Keep us updated!
09-09-2009, 02:19 AM
#10
Board Certified Porsche Trauma Surgeon
Cayenne Grief Counselor
Rennlist Member
Cayenne Grief Counselor
Rennlist Member
- Tried to start engine, starter just clicked. Vehicle took a long flatbed ride to home.
Any more tests we can do, e.g., to see if the engine is seized, etc.
Any advice on approaching the dealer for goodwill? Have an indy check it first? Contact Porsche first?
Indy check it out? Plugs r&r, maybe bore scope.
Good Luck!
09-23-2009, 01:05 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Update ...
thanks for the advice. Here's where we are now:
- following the advice to test for hydrolock, we pulled some spark plugs. Not sure of the numbering, but the most forward one on the driver's side was removed, as was the one behind it. They were both wet with coolant. Inside the cylinders was wet as well (q-tip on a stick poked in there), but not full of coolant. The spark plug behind that one had a problem with it. It took about the same amount of torque to initially break free as the others, but once it started to move, the torque stayed the same. I.e., it was not really loose, but something was shearing as it was being loosened. At this point, we decided to pack it in and take it to the dealer he bought it from 8k miles earlier.
(rest of this is second hand from my Brother in Law)
- Diagnosis - $1100 diagnosis bill. Cylinders scored. Needs new engine. No root cause identified. New engine will cost $11k including installation.
- Goodwill - Porsche (N.A.?) offered to cover half the cost of the new engine.
- The dealer offered to discount the remaining cost by 15%.
- My B-i-L told them to go ahead and do it. Total cost will be around $5500 (I don't see how the math adds up).
I really wish we had a better explanation of the diagnosis - what exactly failed, and what might have caused it, but somehow that info (if it ever existed) got lost somewhere between the tech and me.
When he told me he was to get a "new" engine, I raised the question (which he did not know) of what does that mean. Is it an engine made in 2004 that has been sitting in inventory since then? Is it a 2006 (or whatever ?) engine that is compatible? Rebuild? Any ideas out there what "new" might mean in this case?
thanks for the advice. Here's where we are now:
- following the advice to test for hydrolock, we pulled some spark plugs. Not sure of the numbering, but the most forward one on the driver's side was removed, as was the one behind it. They were both wet with coolant. Inside the cylinders was wet as well (q-tip on a stick poked in there), but not full of coolant. The spark plug behind that one had a problem with it. It took about the same amount of torque to initially break free as the others, but once it started to move, the torque stayed the same. I.e., it was not really loose, but something was shearing as it was being loosened. At this point, we decided to pack it in and take it to the dealer he bought it from 8k miles earlier.
(rest of this is second hand from my Brother in Law)
- Diagnosis - $1100 diagnosis bill. Cylinders scored. Needs new engine. No root cause identified. New engine will cost $11k including installation.
- Goodwill - Porsche (N.A.?) offered to cover half the cost of the new engine.
- The dealer offered to discount the remaining cost by 15%.
- My B-i-L told them to go ahead and do it. Total cost will be around $5500 (I don't see how the math adds up).
I really wish we had a better explanation of the diagnosis - what exactly failed, and what might have caused it, but somehow that info (if it ever existed) got lost somewhere between the tech and me.
When he told me he was to get a "new" engine, I raised the question (which he did not know) of what does that mean. Is it an engine made in 2004 that has been sitting in inventory since then? Is it a 2006 (or whatever ?) engine that is compatible? Rebuild? Any ideas out there what "new" might mean in this case?
09-23-2009, 02:08 PM
#13
Super Moderator
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Needs More Cowbell
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
When he told me he was to get a "new" engine, I raised the question (which he did not know) of what does that mean. Is it an engine made in 2004 that has been sitting in inventory since then? Is it a 2006 (or whatever ?) engine that is compatible? Rebuild? Any ideas out there what "new" might mean in this case?
It is not new, it has been rebuilt by PAG and put into inventory.
There are a couple of other members of the P!g pen who have gotten similar motors installed, IIRC, it comes with a limited warranty.
09-23-2009, 03:32 PM
#14
09-23-2009, 05:24 PM
#15
Nice to know it's only $5500 out your B-I-L pocket.
Word of advice, make sure the reman motor comes with the updated coolant tubes. There is a sticky listed ontop of this forum.
Maybe some slack can be cut on labor since the motor will be on the floor while they install the new tubes if they are still plastic on the reman.
Let us know how it turns out!
Word of advice, make sure the reman motor comes with the updated coolant tubes. There is a sticky listed ontop of this forum.
Maybe some slack can be cut on labor since the motor will be on the floor while they install the new tubes if they are still plastic on the reman.
Let us know how it turns out!