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Two, were your coilpacks cracked? Especially on #5? Before anyone jumps on me that it's unrelated, I would like to explore all the myriad of options that could contribute, even in a small way, to this failure. This has to do with cylinder "wash" in DFI engines...
I also feel this is a strong theory. Especially when people wait for misfire codes and remove soaked/black plugs. Although it could happen in anything from carburetor to FI to DFI.
A good reason to never keep cranking over an engine that won't start. Amazing how quickly the oil dipstick level increases well over the full mark from fuel passing the rings. Now you have washed cylinders and thinned out oil.
It's interesting how the damage almost always involves multiple cylinders...even if the knocking is from one cylinder, most (if not all) of the others will have signs of scoring too.
Now, if this were a tolerance issue isolated to one manufacturer, why is this happening many years apart between the 4.5 and 4.8 blocks?
I remember reading a post years ago where a dealership told the owner it was due to cavitation in the oil pump at start up during extremely cold temperatures. Sounds plausible as you'd have massive oil starvation at the worst possible time BUT everyone should be seeing a low oil pressure warning on the dash...right?
Thanks for posting the pics. Coilpacks are a wear item, like plugs and they really need to be checked regularly. It is also important to note that the NA and Turbo packs are not the same and cannot be interchanged. Also, if you purchase new ones, make darn sure they are sending you the latest iteration. The NA ones have gone through many revisions and the Turbo ones about half as many. Lots of discount parts shops sell the older versions.
Can you post pics of the other four? The reason is that it doesn't appear that there was any burning on the side of the coilpacks due to arcing. When the cracks get severe, there are telltale scorching marks on near the cracks...
When I changed the coilpacks out on my new to me 2009 CTTS when I bought it at 70k miles this Feb, 7 of 8 were cracked, but none arcing and burnt. On my last CTT, a 2008 w/ 60k, all were cracked and two were cracked badly enough that they were arcing. Regrettably, I did not make a note if the arcing two were from either of the two scored cylinders.
Thanks!
Are you certain that the NA and Turbo coils aren’t the same? I usually order parts from Suncoast and they list the “new version” but claim they fit all models.
I’ve always found Suncoast to be accurate.
After further review it appears that the 94860210414 is the latest version and they “fit” all models. The previous versions had different last 2 numbers for different models.
So here are pics of my old coils and spark plugs which passed over 80.000km (I know ). I don't know which coil and spark plug is from which cylinder but as you can see by the spark plugs and coils every single spark plug is exactly the same as coil also.
The fix BMW came up with was Alusil bores. They also extended the warranty on the engine to 100k miles. They blamed the failure of the Nikasil bore on excessive sulphur in US gasoline. Apparently they didn't experience the failure in Europe where sulphur in the fuel is much lower.
Strange thing - Nikasil bores have been used on BMW motorcycle engines since the early 1980's - both water and air-cooled engines, and cylinder bore failure is about unknown. There have been reports of failure on the water cooled ones - at mileages in excess of 300,000 miles. And even then - it's rare. Those engines are so bulletproof that finding a used one is dead easy, and they typically sell in the under $300 range (I bought a low mile "spare" 4 cylinder water cooled engine for $100 once. Never needed it. Sold it for $100 when I sold that bike.)
Anyway - back to the topic..
Aftermarket fixes were available for engines that weren't replaced under the 100k mile warranty:
Talk to Carl at 928 motorsports. He is very well known here on Rennlist and has a great reputation. He was very helpful in helping me evaluate my options and explaining the services his company offers. I also spoke with Jacques at LN Engineering as well. In either case re-sleaved block is going to run $5-6k plus shipping. If you do a full rebuild yourself, you are probably looking at another $3-4k in parts to do it right, but that is just a ballpark. Guys like Mr. Haney and Toureg certainly have lots of experience here.
Honestly, these engines are seriously well engineered (flame suit on!) and I really think doing a rebuild would be a fun project. If my car hadn't been totaled by an idiot head-on, I would have done my rebuild last winter and had personal experiences and tips to share. Jake Raby's Porsche V8 class was a good intro, but there is no substitute for learning hands on.
I think it is time for someone to do a extensive write-up about this issue and the options available as well as aggregating the threads about other's experiences, including all the TSB's, videos and sound clips. I'll see if I have the time in the coming weeks.
Also, I have been thinking that it's time for Rennlister's to put their heads together and get ahold of a factory (or factory copy) diagram of the engine removal jig. It is really the best and only way to go save tons of time and effort. Several here on the board have been successful using other methods, but after seeing the factory system, it really is great. I would fab one up or get one fabbed if someone can get the specs... anyone have access?
Cheers,
TomF
The Cayenne Hands- On engine rebuild school will be happening in 2018, as long as I have 10 attendees sign up for the inaugural class.
TomF: Yes - all of the coils are cracked, except #5 and #4 that were recently renewed. My guess is the previous owner had some rough running issues and the garage changed 2 coils (receipt from Porsche). But It ran fine, especially when I installed the correct spark plugs. Only thing was a slight hesitation after freeway driving, at the off ramp red light. Exactly there it would do a slight hesitation and misfire (very so slightly) on the first second or two - when setting off.
That is the coils that are cracked and allow the spark to jump under load, but Im sure a bit of epoxy in the crack (I know how that sounds.... ) should fix that problem since its an insulation issue rather than the coil it self. Seen this before.
As far a well engineered ...... hmmmm. I can live with valve guides that needs replacement, but a common cylinder score issue is just bad engineering - pure and simple. I dare you to find any Mercedes with an M119 engine and test it - regardless of miles..... THAT is engineering!!! Thing is - Porsche diddn't really develop the Cayenne - they sort of jumped on board with VAG in that they saw a market. On my own Touareg V8 (that is a Audi engine) its funny to see how many thing are the same on the 08 Cayenne. The tranny plus transfercase is the Aisin Warner - diffs are VW, many engine aux component are VAG. The engine itself is from Porsche - but I'll bet you once I open it up, I can finde cross refs to VAG inside..... :-)
Anyway - Im disappointed.... a Porsche engine should do more regardless of abuse, coldstart or not, driving cycles and so on. After all - other brands can pass that mark without problems, or certainly without a catastrophic engine failure - which this is.... and apparently not an unknown issue.
I have looked at 928motorsports - and it looks like a block overhaul is around the $4600.- mark. I think that is pricy - especially because it does not include anything. You have to dismantle the enigne your self, ship the block without anything, and you will get it back refurbished with new pistons. But thats it! They dont say if you get the block head resurfaced and so on.
I am really hooked on a Chevy LS conversion. So far no one (that I know of) have done that and it seems no transmission / engine block adapter is out there. From my initial "eyeballing" it should work on hooking a LS up to the Aisin Warner 09D tranny. The tranny has its own control module and as such only needs basic engine info which also should work..... Renegade Hybrids have done several 996 LS conversions but only to the manual tx. However - they all seem to talk with the cars electronics....
For emissions and versatility - it looks like the Chevy LS3 and LS7 would be best choices. A brand new 430 HP LS3 rings at about $8500.- and givin that the original 4.8 will cost close to 5000 for the block alone, plus all that is needed to build it - its almost cheaper for the LS.
TomF: Yes - all of the coils are cracked, except #5 and #4 that were recently renewed. My guess is the previous owner had some rough running issues and the garage changed 2 coils (receipt from Porsche). But It ran fine, especially when I installed the correct spark plugs. Only thing was a slight hesitation after freeway driving, at the off ramp red light. Exactly there it would do a slight hesitation and misfire (very so slightly) on the first second or two - when setting off.
That is the coils that are cracked and allow the spark to jump under load, but Im sure a bit of epoxy in the crack (I know how that sounds.... ) should fix that problem since its an insulation issue rather than the coil it self. Seen this before.
As far a well engineered ...... hmmmm. I can live with valve guides that needs replacement, but a common cylinder score issue is just bad engineering - pure and simple. I dare you to find any Mercedes with an M119 engine and test it - regardless of miles..... THAT is engineering!!! Thing is - Porsche diddn't really develop the Cayenne - they sort of jumped on board with VAG in that they saw a market. On my own Touareg V8 (that is a Audi engine) its funny to see how many thing are the same on the 08 Cayenne. The tranny plus transfercase is the Aisin Warner - diffs are VW, many engine aux component are VAG. The engine itself is from Porsche - but I'll bet you once I open it up, I can finde cross refs to VAG inside..... :-)
Anyway - Im disappointed.... a Porsche engine should do more regardless of abuse, coldstart or not, driving cycles and so on. After all - other brands can pass that mark without problems, or certainly without a catastrophic engine failure - which this is.... and apparently not an unknown issue.
I have looked at 928motorsports - and it looks like a block overhaul is around the $4600.- mark. I think that is pricy - especially because it does not include anything. You have to dismantle the enigne your self, ship the block without anything, and you will get it back refurbished with new pistons. But thats it! They dont say if you get the block head resurfaced and so on.
I am really hooked on a Chevy LS conversion. So far no one (that I know of) have done that and it seems no transmission / engine block adapter is out there. From my initial "eyeballing" it should work on hooking a LS up to the Aisin Warner 09D tranny. The tranny has its own control module and as such only needs basic engine info which also should work..... Renegade Hybrids have done several 996 LS conversions but only to the manual tx. However - they all seem to talk with the cars electronics....
For emissions and versatility - it looks like the Chevy LS3 and LS7 would be best choices. A brand new 430 HP LS3 rings at about $8500.- and givin that the original 4.8 will cost close to 5000 for the block alone, plus all that is needed to build it - its almost cheaper for the LS.
Nice video. Sorry to hear about the major problem though.
I'm about to buy a 2004 S, and am looking for some clarification about engine ticking. Upon popping the hood, with the car warmed up, etc., there is what I would call a pretty loud TICKING that sounds like it is coming uniformly from the top of the engine. Like I can believe it is 8 fuel injectors clicking, or something else in there that is supposed to be there. I'm not worried. Just checking. It sounds right, unless 8 out of 8 things all failed the same exact way.
Watching this video, which refers to TICKING and CLACKING, it seems that all the discussion is about the obvious CLACKING - which to my ear definitely sounds bad and from reading this I can see it has been thoroughly diagnosed. No discussion at all about the TICKING, which seems to be at an 8x higher rate, uniform, quieter, but still clearly present.
The TICKING in that video sounds EXACTLY like the engine I'm looking at.
So is that TICKING OK, like I'm thinking?
Side question - there are ~102k miles on this truck, but a new Porsche crate engine was put in about half way through that, at our local dealer, following when the original engine seized, perhaps related to the cylinder scoring issue. One think I know is that this new engine did not have the problematic plastic coolant pipes (the retrofit was pre-installed). So here's the question - is there any chance that this factory engine, circa 2010 (I can get more details later), but for the 2004 S (4.5l V8), had any cylinder scoring countermeasures designed into it by that point?
So here's the question - is there any chance that this factory engine, circa 2010 (I can get more details later), but for the 2004 S (4.5l V8), had any cylinder scoring countermeasures designed into it by that point?
None. Cylinder scoring occurs thru the whole years of V8 engine - there was no root cause fix by Porsche and Porsche never admitted to any design flaws.
None. Cylinder scoring occurs thru the whole years of V8 engine - there was no root cause fix by Porsche and Porsche never admitted to any design flaws.
Thanks. Any comment on the ticking noise (that was my primary question)?
That sounds like the clacking noise from the OP's video. This video is not as good as the OP's, so the ticking is tougher to hear.
Maybe I should just upload my own video, although if you can separate the clacking from the ticking in the OP's video, that's exactly what mine is.
To determine what clicking you are hearing, park next to a wall drive thru style and roll down the drivers window. If you can hear the clicking, you are losing cylinders... Other than very light ticking with the hood open, head down by the intake, you shouldn't be hearing the 4.5 injectors. The 08+ DFI injectors are a little louder.
11-04-2017, 02:23 PM
). I don't know which coil and spark plug is from which cylinder but as you can see by the spark plugs and coils every single spark plug is exactly the same as coil also.
) should fix that problem since its an insulation issue rather than the coil it self. Seen this before.
