Joel 67

Hello everyone,

I’m having an issue with a CTT I purchased last August as a CPO. This is a bit of a long backstory but it is germane to my question/issue. Without further ado … the vehicle was advertised on the dealer website without CPO. I drove the vehicle, liked it, and as part of my negotiation, had salesperson agree to CPO the vehicle and sell to me at an agreed upon price. Transaction closes and I take delivery of vehicle. Upon delivery I noticed that the ACC was not working and made a mental note to have it repaired. It took me several months to find the time to get this service performed and called to make an appointment in Jan of 2017. Upon calling for an appointment, the service manager tells me the car is not in-fact a CPO but that he’d check with Sales and get back to me. He does so, and I’m told that the vehicle was promised as a CPO but the paperwork wasn’t filed so they will need to do so and it would become effective in Feb of 2017, roughly 6 months after I took delivery. The good news is that I didn’t need service in that time period and the CPO would be 2 years from that Feb date, so it’s like I got a 6 month free CPO. I was concerned however, as it made me question the “inspection” that they said they did in August prior to my purchase (which showed a functioning ACC by the way …). Regardless, the made good on my CPO and I received in the mail the official Porsche CPO package so this time I knew I had a warranty.

A couple of weeks ago I had a very minor accident where I made impact with another vehicle. The front bumper cover got a small crack and a piece of the grill also was broken but the needed repairs looked to be quite minor. I did make a police report and am filing a claim with my insurance company. I brought the vehicle to the insurers preferred provider (I use USAA insurance). They disassemble the vehicle and tell me it had previously been involved in an accident and some of the repairs were done poorly. At this point I’m kind of mad at my dealer, but also giving them the benefit of the doubt that perhaps it wasn’t caught by their tech in the inspection. The repair shop called me today to say that they put the car on an alignment rack today before putting it together, and realized that the prior repair was very poorly done and the whole front end was shimmed up. They further said that they can’t properly fix this vehicle without repairing the prior damage properly, but they can’t bill USAA for it since it was prior damage (nor should they).

This brings me to my situation. I’ve not yet called the selling dealer to complain as I’m seeking some input and guidance from this esteemed group. I feel like I’ve been screwed by the dealer, as by buying what I believed to be a “CPO”, I had reasonable confidence the vehicle had never been in an accident. I viewed the Carfax then and again now and it does not disclose the prior accident. Now I’m faced with a vehicle that will need repairs to make it right, and I’m not sure who is or should be liable for the cost of these repairs.

Do I call the sales manager at the Porsche dealer and demand that they pay for the repair? Do I call Porsche and complain to them about this abuse of the CPO program by the selling dealer? I’m not sure what the best course of action is here. I actually really like my vehicle and would keep it if it could be repaired, but I do think this prior damage affects the value of the vehicle (as does the more recent damage, despite it being quite minor).

Appreciate any insights! The vehicle is a 2012 but I do not think this should be moved to the 958 forum as I don’t think this is a 958 specific issue.

v10rick

The P requirement is no negative CF information. Assuming there was none and the repairs were hidden from view it could be an honest oversight during the CPO inspection.

I expect confirming frame alignment is not on the CPO to do list. Dealers without a body shop have no need for a frame alignment rack.

A reputable dealer may offer to share the repair costs, I would ask.

Taking the issue to P may not help matters. What if they decide to withdraw CPO coverage?

nodoors

1. I would not talk to Porsche either. They will do nothing since this was a used car sale and not a new car sale. It seems they are more likely to cancel the CPO than anything, IMO.

2. I would call the dealer and setup a meeting with the salesman and the manager and/or owner. The salesman will have no power to handle this situation, but he was the person who represented their side of the transaction. Depending on how much the Dealer honors themselves their range of actions to remedy this is going to vary.

3. Explain to them your expectations of what you think is fair and if they do not agree to them, then hopefully you are in a state with a small claims court that goes high enough to make a meaningful impact.

chsu74

Any retro CPO certification after exchanging cars probably means paperwork was filled out and inspection not done. Porsche CPO allows damaged vehicles repaired to a level not easily detected. Your car was such until it had another accident I guess..

phatz

Sorry for your angst
IANYL
This looks like a slam dunk
Surely this car will not paint meter correctly and therefore it fails this straight away "...have signs of previous collision"
Ask for the Porsche version of this attached Audi doc (refer to page 34)

eddielasvegas

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Here's hoping it is resolved to your satisfaction.

And yours adds one more data point to reinforce one of Eddie's absolute truths: DASH (Deals Are Merde Heads.)

Here's a CPO checklist PCNA sent me about three years ago.

A CPO does one thing: Extends your bumper-to-bumper by 2 years.


Good luck,


Eddie

phatz

J67 ....status please

Joel 67

This is shaping up to be a bit like the "My Poor Car" thread. Body shop did some further digging and are saying they need to replace two frame rails due to creases in them from the prior damage. The bill is estimated at $8k for the repair including the original damage I did ($2k for bumper cover, bumper backing, and some other plastic parts). But that's an estimate at the moment. They are submitting the costs to my insurer who can approve or deny the claim.

I called the dealer and spoke to the sales mgr. He said the CPO program was a mechanical program (which is BS, it clearly covers the body and frame) and not a cosmetic program, and that it's likely the prior damage was not uncovered during the CPO inspection (also BS). He is relatively new to the dealership and was not there at the time of sale. Not sure if that is a good or bad thing as it relates to my prospects. At any rate, he did not take down my name or info but rather asked me to email him with all of the details. I have not yet done that as I do not yet know what the full extent of the repairs are nor what will be covered by my insurance.

I plan to visit the body shop tomorrow to get info and take pictures of paint gauging so I can document any additional paint on front fenders or hood (though it's possible they were replaced at the time of the accident). If there is no reliable way to prove the dealer knew or should have known about the damage, I'm afraid I may not have firm ground to stand on.

Long story short ... get a damn good PPI, even on a CPO vehicle! I mistakenly believed the CPO was essentially a PPI, and that was a potentially expensive mistake.

I did read all 53 pages of the "My Poor Car" thread and from that, I don't expect much from the dealer, and don't expect any support from PCNA. Sad.

phatz

Joel
This is an easy win, they failed the CPO process
If you are not comfortable getting this resolved yourself
Retain some counsel, limit his or her time, and the diminished value part of equation will easily cover that cost

gnat

Start with the dealer. If you have to go up to the general manager and they are still stone walling, suggest that PCNA will be your next stop. The GM will know full well that PCNA will not appreciate finding out that their CPO program is being abused/scammed.

While nodoors is generally correct that PCNA doesn't care about used car sales (even from a P dealer), they very much care about shady CPO coverage since they are the ones that have to back it. They will not appreciate that the inspection was obviously skipped (paint meter) or that it was put into effect well after you had the car.

If you lay that all out calmly and professionally to the GM they should understand that while you may have the CPO revoked, the dealer is going to ultimately get the short end of the stick on this one. Not only will losing the coverage give you legal recourse against them, PCNA is going to crawl up their *** too.

There is a similar thread in here about someone that had a CPO 957 (I think) that was in the same boat. Selling dealer should never have CPO'd it and that was discovered by the servicing dealer. I know it was a royal mess for awhile and PCNA was involved, but I don't recall the result.

gnat

Here is the thread I was thinking of: https://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-...al-dealer.html

Joel 67

Thanks for the link. I'd love to know the final outcome of that issue. For mine, I visited the body shop today and spoke to the tech who found the issue. I can see a crease in the outside of the right frame rail. They believe there is one on the inside left rail but will need to disassemble to be sure. there were some significant shims that fell out when the front end was disassembled. The tech showed me the front fenders and one is clearly a replacement as the back is unfinished/black primer while the other has an e-coat on it. He also showed me signs of overspray on a piece of weather striping and a paint line from taping in the same area. He also said there were some dust nibs in the hood (I could not see them myself).

They do not have a paint gauge so I ordered one on Amazon today. Once in hand, I'll go back and get all surfaces gauged to see where there is factory paint and where there isn't. If there are 3 or more repainted panels I think I have a clear case that the dealership obviously didn't perform the CPO inspection and/or did and never should have CPO'ed the vehicle. From there, I'll contact a lawyer and an appraiser to determine the diminished value I should seek from the dealer.

More to come ...

v10rick

With frame damage I would expect the air bags deployed. Curious how a police report was not filed...assuming a clean CF.

Have you ordered a CF to see if any of this shows up?

If left as is how would this affect tire wear/handling?

phatz

With the overspray onto the weather striping, you are already past the point of what is needed for the box to have been checked off. There is no need to have 3 panels fail your meter test

visitador

As v10rick stated, have you checked the carfax?