Scoob

Hi,

I'm thinking about getting a 944t to set up and use as a dedicated autox car with occasional track use, too. I'm a Chevy guy (thus I'm also considering a Corvette for this purpose) and I know little about Porsches so go easy on me.

A friend of mine had an '89 944t and he's still a big proponent of them for what I want to do and he's pressing pretty hard for me to go in that direction. I liked that car a lot and I've heard about how well balanced they are and how their handling is terrific so I don't want to rule it out. The major concern I have about going with a 944t rather than an '89/'90 Corvette is repair and maintenance cost.

With either type of car I'm figuring that I can pick up a fairly decent example for around $7-$9,000. Interior and exterior cosmetics aren't an issue, I'll be looking for a structurally and mechanically sound and workable example to start with.

At that price point I'm likely looking at examples with fairly high mileage and probably suspect maintenance history. What could I expect in the way of expense (ballpark) for turbo replacement, cam tensioner, clutch replacement, shocks, breaks? Assume stock components for now as I will want to stay in a stock autox class for a while until I learn the car. How durable are the stock trannies? The rear ends? Are parts readily available?

For those of you who have done this what am I overlooking and/or what are your experiences?

TIA

M758

Turbo SUCK at autocross due to the power delivery. Great at the track however.

944S2 will be MUCH better at autocross and almost as fast at the track. These are also avalible in your price range. If you do the wrenching yourself (not that hard) then the costs are manageble. If you pay someone they can get expensive.

The cars are quite durable for track and autocross use. They ARE NOT FOR DRAG RACING however. The biggest issues are maintence items and general old age and wear.

I have been racing my 944 for a few years and had only 1 track related failure. I did have to fix a number of little things, but these were all maintence, or just parts getting old and wearing out. Considering I started with non-running POS these types of thing are to be expected.

Alan Herod

As a Porsche guy this may be considered heresy. But, given the autocross class structure, you will probably be more successful in a Vette for less investment. For Autocross your brakes will not be as big a liability. I occasionally instruct at non-Porsche events and at the last event I had the pleasure of signing off one of our (PCA) red run group instructors. He was driving a race prepared Turbo S and was flying past everyone in the solo group with the exception of the Corvettes that also came on trailers. We had some advantage in the braking zone and held or own or did a little better in the twisties, but the power of the Z06 (?) was too much. Any Porsche is probably more expensive to maintain then a Vette unless you are one of the Vette all numbers match crowd.

Scoob

Thank you! That was my thought but my friend disagreed.

I'm not afraid to tackle most stuff myself and since it wouldn't be a dd I wouldn't be afraid of making a mistake.

Drag racing is not my thing. Boring, imho.

thanks

porshhhh951

wow turbos suck at auto x?

news to me. BTW to someone who mentioned a ls6 c5. He wasen't talking about the 98 and newer vette's but, a 89-90 c4. A 951 with a good driver is probably about as fast as a clean 89 vette with a good driver in average condition's with average tires.

The 951 really shines when you install something like this.

http://www.lindseyracing.com/Merchan...CKAGEDEALSIHPP

With just a few hundred bucks you could eat a c4 alive. Take on some decent tires and learn how to leave the line on boost and hold boost pressure in the turn's and you will have a seriously quick little Road race car. I have only done a few event's in my turbo Equippe Rappide,SCCA,PCA Maverick division, and a few laps around MotorSport's Ranch. I can tell you that these car's do make the lap times.

For a wrencher like yourself the turbo is fairly easy to work on and as long as things like waterpump,belt's,roller's,and seals are all good...you are pretty much riding in a plug in play type car.

If you see yourself strickly doing auto X and no road race it might be a tuff choice...but, if you do see yourself in the years to come branching out then the 951 would be a clear winner. Both car's can be made to run very competitvely with one another with little effort. If you are a chevy guy at heart maybe the c4 would be a better choice for you.

My 0.2c Either way you go goodluck.

For specific question's about the 951 tranny,engine,rear end,mods, running classes,ect. Feel free to email me @Prsch944turbo@aol.com

take care

porshhhh951

oh sorry one more thing the 944 s2 is a killer car with the 3.0 ltr N/A you have a broad power curve so it's easier to auto X. The turbo takes more work but, in the end is more rewarding in the upper rpm's.

M758 just wanted you to know I understand your argument and I too am a fan of the s2.

boqueron

I asked the forum abolut the best Porsche for tracking. Here is the ( long ) thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-and-drivers-education-forum/94725-which-porsche-for-track-driving.html

M758

I have autocrossed both my 944 Turbo S and my 83 944. Both on street tires. The 83 was faster due to the more imediate power delivery. My 951 was never in is power band except for right when you needed to slow down. If the straights are long and you can keep to 3500 to 4000+ RPM in 2nd gear you have a chance, but below that and the car can't get out of it own way. The little 2.5L NA gives up at least 100 hp, but does make power at autocross speeds. Some is due to no need to wait for the the turbo to spool, some is due to the lower gearing of the NA.

At the track a 951 has a huge edge and can be VERY fast.

Alan Herod

John, you are obviously correct about the comparison between the C4, C5, C6 and I don't even know the first thing about Corvettes. I just know from personal experience that although I don't dislike Corvettes (and may even grudgingly like them) as a Porsche I would never be happy with the switch. I have driven Corvettes and I have raced 'against' them. They generally dominated AS (or whatever the class they were in at the time I was paying attention, the late 80s. Then I 'raced' against them only because SCCA the put ITS and SSGT on the track at the same time. They dominated the current 944T with one or two seriously sponsored exceptions. I don't know what C version those were. Personally, given the choices, I would select the 944TS, but would not expect to contain the cost. A big advantage of sticking with the Chevy is having your support infrastructure in place. I cannot imagine a world in which it would be less expensive to race and maintain a 944Turbo or turbo anything then a Vette, other then your tire and brake pad budget.

And, if you decide to switch, your Vette buddies will not leave you alone, and the 944T guys will welcome a new proselyte. I believe this might count for something when enroute to Porsche heaven/nirvana. Hopefully I won't have to atone for my heresy.

Alpine951

clutch job when I bought my car 4 years ago was around $2200!! The clutch itself was around $550, the rest was labor. Some shops charge what the factory says how long the job will take which is around an 18 to 22 hour job supposedly. This was on a 1986 which came with what is called a one piece crossover pipe which runs from just under the exhaust collectors to the turbo. It requires more removal of the the exhaust, hence the extra labor. Customers complained and porsche then made the cars with two piece cross over pipes to lessen the removal of exhaust components. I have done a bunch on my car. The thing about alot of the examples out there is that many of them will come with upgrades that the owners have allready done. Not that they aren't great to start with. My 86 came with a suspension that is great for the street but soft for the track. The later cars came with beefier suspension components. i am to the point where i have had enough of the stock suspension at the track and will be doing better front struts with heavier springs and adjustable ride height spring perches, better rear shocks, beefier rear torsion bars. It should be around $1,300. My winter project which will actually start in four weeks. You might want to investigate the #2 rod bearing issue that seems to be an issue with some of these cars. Some people do things like cross drilling the crank i think, plus oil accumulators as well. the bearings spin. I have heard its an easy job. Also heard it should be done on a 100k mile car if its a tracker. Timing belts plus water pumps are around $600. After having an independant shop do it when I bought the car i did my own timing belt for the first time a few years ago. cheap. blown head gasket , $1100 at the shop. I did it this spring for $90. The cars are amazing. How fast do you want to go..........As fast as however much money you can spend!!!

Alan Herod

If you decide to go to the Porsche - the 944T will provide you the easiest, most efficient path to spending your money to go faster. You did not mention that you were considering a 911, 914, or 928. My observations from the track on other choices (in your target price $7-$9K):

Early 911 or beat up SC - Slow (relative to your selections) a terrific learning tool which will not forgive mistakes like a 944, 928, or Corvette. Little mistakes will be greatly magnified. Most robust once you have cured the problems you will find in this price range. A religous experience.

914 - ditto above, small mistakes will not be forgiven - pretty good cult following. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Acquire solid one for $4K and drop in a 3.2 or 3.6 (few are satisfied with the four)- then spend thousands on suspension, brakes, five bolt conversion, wheels, wide body, tube frame, and have a formula car with fenders. One of my students had this car on slicks this past weekend.

928 - relatively inexpensive to acquire, but very, very pricy to maintain and upgrade. Limited aftermarket. Again a very loyal and biased group of followers, constantly on the lookout for proselytes. Wonderful sound at speed and some of these cars really fly. Did I mention the exhaust note? Ironically our taller instructors do not fit in these cars when wearing helmets. I learned this early since I make instructor assignments. I suppose if you bolt the seat directly to the floor this is not a problem. This and the 914 are the least accomodating to tall instructors.

944 - You must learn momentum and how to maintain it, is a valuable skill in any car, but most of all here. The best racing series for Porsches is the 944 Cup. http://www.nasaracing.net/roadrace/9...lnerSweeps.htm The front lower control arms are substandard on this car and cannot be upgraded without being booted out of stock class??? Seems to be a similar problem on early 944T but many parts were beefed up on the 944TS.

I suspect that I have offended someone in every group, but these are just my observations. I would like at least one of each. Generally when I make such gross generalizations as above the 928 guys are the first to respond.

I forwarded this thread to Tony K, a recent 944T convert (from 911), who participates in the series. FWIW - at the track this past weekend there was a very nice track 944T for $34K, so cost can quickly go way out of control.

APKhaos

Since Alan dropped me into this........

Going back to what Scoob said in the first post:

"I'm thinking about getting a 944t to set up and use as a dedicated autox car with occasional track use, too."

If AutoX is the prime objective, I agree that any turbo car is going to be more challenging to drive and less competitive [unless it happens to be a prepared 4WD rally car fresh from WRC ].

In the Porsche universe, the 944S2 has bags of low end torque, and good gearing for AutoX. I good S2 in the hands of a good driver is a good match for a 944T on many tracks. Generally, the 944T has the advantage on power tracks like VIR & Watkins Glen where the top end power of the turbo really shines.

If the track was your first priority, the 944Turbo S [88/89 only] is a great choice. If you really want to have some fun, then the 944Cup is a great race series for these cars. Relatively inexpensive racing, a great crowd, runs under NASA sanctioning, and a ton of fun. If you want, you can run the car in 944Cup AND PCA Club Racing as well.

For AutoX and occasional track, I'd look at a 944S2, or.......
...a lightweight E30 M3, which could just be one of the best balanced and tureable cars around [sorry for the heresy].

All of this assumes you are aiming for a stock class. The GT classes are a different game - in fact, they are an arms race. The 944T for sale that Alan mentioned is a classic case. Its dead easy to got 400+ RWH from a 944T using basically bolt-on parts. Trouble is, that places the car in a class where 500+RWH and 2000# are the entry point, and budget from there up is unlimited. Did I mention is was an arms race??

One word of advice, reagardless of which model you choose:

Buy a fully prepared car with a race record that you can verify and records of maintenance and tuning/setup work. You will save thousands!!! Best bet is to choose your model , then go looking for a competitive, well prepared car thats being sold by a guy retiring from racing. You will get a known good setup and all the development work that went into it [which is a lot!] for cents on the dollar. Don't be suckered into preparing a street car from scratch. The costs are substantial, and it can be an expensive process even if you use an experienced shop. Ask me how I know

As Alan said, I bought a 944urbo S with a good record at the beginning of the year. Its run all 9 races in the 2004 944Cup series [starting at Daytona - woohoo] and a bunch of PCA DE events with ZERO mechanical problems, adn is currently the 944SuperCup series leader. I'm loving life with this car.

porshhhh951

wow...come really on point posts since I left.

I would have to hole heartedly agree with APk. Buy a car that already has plenty of verified race history and maintace records. This way you will save ton's and ton's of money.

Someone else brought up the old #2 rod bearing in the 951. What most people don't know is it's not a real defect. What happens is in very hard cornering on a road course or auto x the oil being pumped from the pan to the journal's and bearing's gets strained. The #2 bearing while spining its little heart out with the rod get's robbed of much need lubricant. So it becomes detached and since it's spining hard with the rpm's of the motor can come shooting out along with the #2 rod itself.

the best way to avoid this from happening is to baffle your oil pan or run a dry sump of some sort. A dry sump oil system would almost completely eliminate the problem. I have never hered of it happening on a dry sump system. Just stock oil system's running higher level's of boost pressure cornering hard out at MotorSports Ranch ect.

I say buy a car with what you want already in it...once ofcourse you do all of your research and then just have fun.

The c4 is a hard bargin to beat but, I think if you plan on doing more than auto x the 951 would be the way to go.

btw Tony my car came from the cup series in VIR. Do you know of a guy names carter? He has several 951's and lives out there?

porshhhh951

Also how competitive are you running in E class these days on your 89?

I havent' had the chance to run my 951 in PCA much since I bought it. Whenever I get more time I plan on bringing it out more though.

mikew968

The Porsche not mentioned here is the 968. Although it is generally a little more expensive than others mentioned it is also a bit newer and more modern. It is 3.0L with 236 hp and 225 T. It will be the BS Auto-X car to beat along with the 350Z. It is generally faster on auto-x and the track compared to 944 or 944T but not as fast as 944 TS. The 944S2 is pretty equivilent as it weights a little less with a little less HP.

I'm not partial...


MIke