Looking for some Panamera Turbo Advice
08-29-2018, 08:16 PM
#16
@Cincy I was wondering why everyone kept recommending a GTS as I originally wanted a Turbo for the higher HP. It wasn't until I did some test drives and launches at the dealership that I realized why it was the preferred model. Good luck!
08-29-2018, 09:13 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
08-30-2018, 03:24 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
having just gone through this exact purchase, i have a couple comments that might be helpful. from the turbo vs. turboS perspective, those cars are a dead heat until 100mph. beyond 100mph, the turboS stretches it's legs more and pulls away. for me, in the end, the 50hp difference turned out to be a total non-issue. as mentioned, a tuned turbo will come in above the turboS numbers at 575hp. for far less than the initial gap in price, you've eclipsed the turboS output. to be honest, 500hp from the turbo is pretty damn sufficient in my overall use and i'm looking at exhaust mods first to wake up the exhaust note a tad. the GTS is also a great option and has that wonderful NA exhaust note. i absolutely needed ventilated seats, so it made finding a GTS a bit harder. in the end, i bought an impeccably kept '13 turbo that was very nicely optioned. to me, there's a greater difference between the GTS and the turbo than there is between the turbo and the turboS. i would say it will come down to the options you must have and which car you find in the condition you want.
08-31-2018, 12:23 AM
#19
The GTS is not faster or better feeling than the Turbo. I'm not really sure what feel means. This is something reviewers say is regards to the fact that perhaps the price difference isn’t worth it. This is something people say when they don’t want to spend the extra money on the Turbo. Valid discussion point but has nothing to do with the performance of the Turbo which is unquestionably insane. I have no idea how if testing and launching the GTS and Turbo models becomes the test on which on to buy, how the GTS would win. Its significantly slower.
The Turbo out performs the GTS in every category. Does the higher compression NA sounds better? Maybe, maybe not, but put the right exhaust on the Turbo and....I personally like the sport exhaust and think is sounds just great under WOT. Why buy a luxury super sedan to have a loud exhaust? What you do get in the GTS is some beautiful model specific trims and options and I believe all of the active handling features. I think the GTS is slightly more rare, but where I live I see about the same amount of each, which is to say not very many Panamera in any trim.
Truth be told the GTS fully loaded wasn't that much less than a Turbo new in most ordered trims. Same model year, same options, same milage, they are still less than the Turbo used or about the same. They are no Unicorns.......
With the base Turbo and all the options including the powerkit you are actually a Turbo S anyway in price and performance. The GTS generally from my shopping around seems to be less common, produced during fewer of the model years, better preserved in general, with lower mileage on average. This might close the gap between the GTS and Turbo used price point, but I still typically see the Turbos slightly higher.
The ‘S’ trim Turbo simply gets you some badges and full options from the start. You want all of those extra handling options (trust me you do) so if you’re looking at a Turbo that has all of those options, and do a tune you aren’t going to be “short” of the S at all in performance and driving experience. The S are more likely to have Burmester, adaptive cruise, lane assist, heated and cooled seats, and 4 zone climate control. The adaptive seats are not that common.
The S is a bit more rare than other trims, so there is that. It’s actually really hard to find a base turbo will all of the handing options and even more rare with the powerkit. I never found a base turbo with the powerkit option. Less the 1/3 of base turbo had the PTV. Many didn't have all of the active handling, and suspension options.
Since the recall, the powekit and S special Ti turbo rotors were replaced, and not with special turbos. Its kind of a rip off to be honest to S and Plowerkit buyers. I have read that the S turbos are still slightly different than the base models but I haven’t confirmed this. I can confirm that the S is faster than the base turbo to 60 by a car length with repeated attempts. The gap only grows the faster you go. Having the active handling features, all of them might help the launch I don’t know. It’s not a huge difference but it’s not as insignificant as it made out to be...in my experience. Vivid or GIAC tune and that problem is solved. Both cars tuned, and the S trim is even less of a difference. Meaning the same tune in both cars doesn’t mean the S will always be 50 hp ahead.
The price your bud is asking for the 2012 isn’t the worst if it’s in really well taken care of and in maintained condition. Miles are really high. You should be able to find a 2012 Turbo with less than 50,000 miles for $45k ish and the Turbo S for $55k or so.
2013 Turbo (listing says its an S, it is not) under 50k miles $49k pretty loaded good color - pretty good deal actually
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=215436212
2013 GTS rare color 40,000 miles $49,000
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=216331274
The Turbo out performs the GTS in every category. Does the higher compression NA sounds better? Maybe, maybe not, but put the right exhaust on the Turbo and....I personally like the sport exhaust and think is sounds just great under WOT. Why buy a luxury super sedan to have a loud exhaust? What you do get in the GTS is some beautiful model specific trims and options and I believe all of the active handling features. I think the GTS is slightly more rare, but where I live I see about the same amount of each, which is to say not very many Panamera in any trim.
Truth be told the GTS fully loaded wasn't that much less than a Turbo new in most ordered trims. Same model year, same options, same milage, they are still less than the Turbo used or about the same. They are no Unicorns.......
With the base Turbo and all the options including the powerkit you are actually a Turbo S anyway in price and performance. The GTS generally from my shopping around seems to be less common, produced during fewer of the model years, better preserved in general, with lower mileage on average. This might close the gap between the GTS and Turbo used price point, but I still typically see the Turbos slightly higher.
The ‘S’ trim Turbo simply gets you some badges and full options from the start. You want all of those extra handling options (trust me you do) so if you’re looking at a Turbo that has all of those options, and do a tune you aren’t going to be “short” of the S at all in performance and driving experience. The S are more likely to have Burmester, adaptive cruise, lane assist, heated and cooled seats, and 4 zone climate control. The adaptive seats are not that common.
The S is a bit more rare than other trims, so there is that. It’s actually really hard to find a base turbo will all of the handing options and even more rare with the powerkit. I never found a base turbo with the powerkit option. Less the 1/3 of base turbo had the PTV. Many didn't have all of the active handling, and suspension options.
Since the recall, the powekit and S special Ti turbo rotors were replaced, and not with special turbos. Its kind of a rip off to be honest to S and Plowerkit buyers. I have read that the S turbos are still slightly different than the base models but I haven’t confirmed this. I can confirm that the S is faster than the base turbo to 60 by a car length with repeated attempts. The gap only grows the faster you go. Having the active handling features, all of them might help the launch I don’t know. It’s not a huge difference but it’s not as insignificant as it made out to be...in my experience. Vivid or GIAC tune and that problem is solved. Both cars tuned, and the S trim is even less of a difference. Meaning the same tune in both cars doesn’t mean the S will always be 50 hp ahead.
The price your bud is asking for the 2012 isn’t the worst if it’s in really well taken care of and in maintained condition. Miles are really high. You should be able to find a 2012 Turbo with less than 50,000 miles for $45k ish and the Turbo S for $55k or so.
2013 Turbo (listing says its an S, it is not) under 50k miles $49k pretty loaded good color - pretty good deal actually
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=215436212
2013 GTS rare color 40,000 miles $49,000
https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=216331274
Last edited by Paul Rathjen; 08-31-2018 at 01:44 AM.
08-31-2018, 12:08 PM
#20
I would not bother with the turbo or the turbo S if that smoking monkey will go into it.
As to Turbo vs Turbo S? IMO all personal choice. Many ways to make turbo equivalent to Turbo S performance. If it was me, I would hone in on other feel good aspects, internal appearance, other options, sport exhaust, pdcc, pdk, sport plus with chrono, burmester, etc. Once you have these, its where the soul of the car will live.
The turbo S has some exterior features that you can get with enough patience on a turbo.
I think biggest difference between the two is larger turbos with lighter alloy turbine wheels. Everything else can be as option on turbo.
I contemplated same choice. Chose on PTT and waited for all turbo S options on the car. Was able to locate it. Loving the hell out of it now.
As to Turbo vs Turbo S? IMO all personal choice. Many ways to make turbo equivalent to Turbo S performance. If it was me, I would hone in on other feel good aspects, internal appearance, other options, sport exhaust, pdcc, pdk, sport plus with chrono, burmester, etc. Once you have these, its where the soul of the car will live.
The turbo S has some exterior features that you can get with enough patience on a turbo.
I think biggest difference between the two is larger turbos with lighter alloy turbine wheels. Everything else can be as option on turbo.
I contemplated same choice. Chose on PTT and waited for all turbo S options on the car. Was able to locate it. Loving the hell out of it now.
08-31-2018, 06:13 PM
#21
A turbo with all the 'S' options is for all intents and purposes is an S. The chances of you finding one, that also has all of the other things you want is next to none. You can tune a non-S to S trim levels of horsepower, but the S typical still has an edge if it is also tuned. This is also as state earlier, because typically they will have more the go fast goods as standard. A lower mile non-S turbo with everything is going to cost about as much as the S anyway. Yes its true that if you find the right car, with everything you want, its doesn't matter if it has the S badge.
While shopping I would have bought either configuration and wasn't married to having an 'S' badge. Yes it is kind of cool to have a slightly more exclusive car, but I had a list of other more important things. The biggest factor for me was, the S comes with:
Sport Chrono
Better turbos (although like I said the recall actually removes the lighter weight Ti design)
PDCC
PTV+
PASM and Airide
Dynamic Headlights
14 way seats
I absolutely wanted all of those options period.
They also just in general come more loaded with more options like:
Carbon trim
Heated wheel that matches the trim
4 zone climate control
Cooled seats
Lane assist
backup camera
adaptive cruise control
Full rear sun shades
Sport exhaust
Burmester Stereo
Which I absolutely had to have
The S also has the sport design side skirts, which are better, and a slightly different exhaust tip / rear diffuser, at least up until 2014. I think it looks better. The spoiler is color matched to the body, the tips are a brushed aluminum, and the rear diffusers looks more integrated with a body colored center section. I'm actually surprised they didn't just give it the sport design front bumper which looks better and is a must have on light colors. On dark colors you really can't see much if any difference. Good luck with your search.
While shopping I would have bought either configuration and wasn't married to having an 'S' badge. Yes it is kind of cool to have a slightly more exclusive car, but I had a list of other more important things. The biggest factor for me was, the S comes with:
Sport Chrono
Better turbos (although like I said the recall actually removes the lighter weight Ti design)
PDCC
PTV+
PASM and Airide
Dynamic Headlights
14 way seats
I absolutely wanted all of those options period.
They also just in general come more loaded with more options like:
Carbon trim
Heated wheel that matches the trim
4 zone climate control
Cooled seats
Lane assist
backup camera
adaptive cruise control
Full rear sun shades
Sport exhaust
Burmester Stereo
Which I absolutely had to have
The S also has the sport design side skirts, which are better, and a slightly different exhaust tip / rear diffuser, at least up until 2014. I think it looks better. The spoiler is color matched to the body, the tips are a brushed aluminum, and the rear diffusers looks more integrated with a body colored center section. I'm actually surprised they didn't just give it the sport design front bumper which looks better and is a must have on light colors. On dark colors you really can't see much if any difference. Good luck with your search.
08-31-2018, 10:06 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
A turbo with all the 'S' options is for all intents and purposes is an S. The chances of you finding one, that also has all of the other things you want is next to none. You can tune a non-S to S trim levels of horsepower, but the S typical still has an edge if it is also tuned. This is also as state earlier, because typically they will have more the go fast goods as standard. A lower mile non-S turbo with everything is going to cost about as much as the S anyway. Yes its true that if you find the right car, with everything you want, its doesn't matter if it has the S badge.
While shopping I would have bought either configuration and wasn't married to having an 'S' badge. Yes it is kind of cool to have a slightly more exclusive car, but I had a list of other more important things. The biggest factor for me was, the S comes with:
Sport Chrono
Better turbos (although like I said the recall actually removes the lighter weight Ti design)
PDCC
PTV+
PASM and Airide
Dynamic Headlights
14 way seats
I absolutely wanted all of those options period.
They also just in general come more loaded with more options like:
Carbon trim
Heated wheel that matches the trim
4 zone climate control
Cooled seats
Lane assist
backup camera
adaptive cruise control
Full rear sun shades
Sport exhaust
Burmester Stereo
Which I absolutely had to have
The S also has the sport design side skirts, which are better, and a slightly different exhaust tip / rear diffuser, at least up until 2014. I think it looks better. The spoiler is color matched to the body, the tips are a brushed aluminum, and the rear diffusers looks more integrated with a body colored center section. I'm actually surprised they didn't just give it the sport design front bumper which looks better and is a must have on light colors. On dark colors you really can't see much if any difference. Good luck with your search.
While shopping I would have bought either configuration and wasn't married to having an 'S' badge. Yes it is kind of cool to have a slightly more exclusive car, but I had a list of other more important things. The biggest factor for me was, the S comes with:
Sport Chrono
Better turbos (although like I said the recall actually removes the lighter weight Ti design)
PDCC
PTV+
PASM and Airide
Dynamic Headlights
14 way seats
I absolutely wanted all of those options period.
They also just in general come more loaded with more options like:
Carbon trim
Heated wheel that matches the trim
4 zone climate control
Cooled seats
Lane assist
backup camera
adaptive cruise control
Full rear sun shades
Sport exhaust
Burmester Stereo
Which I absolutely had to have
The S also has the sport design side skirts, which are better, and a slightly different exhaust tip / rear diffuser, at least up until 2014. I think it looks better. The spoiler is color matched to the body, the tips are a brushed aluminum, and the rear diffusers looks more integrated with a body colored center section. I'm actually surprised they didn't just give it the sport design front bumper which looks better and is a must have on light colors. On dark colors you really can't see much if any difference. Good luck with your search.
I will keep looking. There’s a CPO one in PA at Sewickly that’s well optioned (wish it were white but it’s black) but the asking is $98k. I’m trying to keep to 85k if I can help it.
08-31-2018, 11:57 PM
#24
With the air suspension at Normal Level,
the Panamera GTS already sits 0.39 in
(10 mm) lower than other Panamera
models and the suspension has a firmer
setting. As soon as SPORT PLUS mode
is selected, the suspension automatically
drops to Low Level (0.59 in lower).
At the same time, a harder spring rate is
achieved through a reduction in the
amount of air stored in the air suspension.
the Panamera GTS already sits 0.39 in
(10 mm) lower than other Panamera
models and the suspension has a firmer
setting. As soon as SPORT PLUS mode
is selected, the suspension automatically
drops to Low Level (0.59 in lower).
At the same time, a harder spring rate is
achieved through a reduction in the
amount of air stored in the air suspension.
09-01-2018, 06:51 AM
#26
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I’m in the market for a similar car, but blue or black. I’m also only considering GTS, Turbo or “S” models. From my research, turbo and “S” models do not hold their value as well as similarly optioned GTS models.
The average sticker price on a GTS is between $125-$135k and used car asking prices range from $45k to $75k. The average sticker price on a Turbo is between $135-$150K and used car asking prices range from $29k-$80k. This tells you that the Turbo model has taken a larger depreciation hit. The Turbo S has taken the largest depreciation hit, with sticker prices north of $200K and asking prices of around $80k-$95k.
If you want all the options, you’ll probably end up in an “S”. If you want the best value, you’ll end up in a GTS. If you want the cheapest car, you’ll get a Turbo.
I’m leaning towards GTS but would settle for a Turbo or S in the right color combination. Good luck in your search, that’s half the fun!
The average sticker price on a GTS is between $125-$135k and used car asking prices range from $45k to $75k. The average sticker price on a Turbo is between $135-$150K and used car asking prices range from $29k-$80k. This tells you that the Turbo model has taken a larger depreciation hit. The Turbo S has taken the largest depreciation hit, with sticker prices north of $200K and asking prices of around $80k-$95k.
If you want all the options, you’ll probably end up in an “S”. If you want the best value, you’ll end up in a GTS. If you want the cheapest car, you’ll get a Turbo.
I’m leaning towards GTS but would settle for a Turbo or S in the right color combination. Good luck in your search, that’s half the fun!
09-01-2018, 08:18 AM
#27
There is about 100lb weight difference between the GTS and turbo models (GTS 4250). They both have the 26.5 gallon fuel tank and heavy floating front disk rotors. Difference caused by turbo related equipment and some differences in standard equipment (seats?). If someone has the owners manual that can be verified.
09-01-2018, 09:11 AM
#28
There is about 100lb weight difference between the GTS and turbo models (GTS 4250). They both have the 26.5 gallon fuel tank and heavy floating front disk rotors. Difference caused by turbo related equipment and some differences in standard equipment (seats?). If someone has the owners manual that can be verified.
09-01-2018, 01:46 PM
#29
I’m in the market for a similar car, but blue or black. I’m also only considering GTS, Turbo or “S” models. From my research, turbo and “S” models do not hold their value as well as similarly optioned GTS models.
The average sticker price on a GTS is between $125-$135k and used car asking prices range from $45k to $75k. The average sticker price on a Turbo is between $135-$150K and used car asking prices range from $29k-$80k. This tells you that the Turbo model has taken a larger depreciation hit. The Turbo S has taken the largest depreciation hit, with sticker prices north of $200K and asking prices of around $80k-$95k.
If you want all the options, you’ll probably end up in an “S”. If you want the best value, you’ll end up in a GTS. If you want the cheapest car, you’ll get a Turbo.
I’m leaning towards GTS but would settle for a Turbo or S in the right color combination. Good luck in your search, that’s half the fun!
The average sticker price on a GTS is between $125-$135k and used car asking prices range from $45k to $75k. The average sticker price on a Turbo is between $135-$150K and used car asking prices range from $29k-$80k. This tells you that the Turbo model has taken a larger depreciation hit. The Turbo S has taken the largest depreciation hit, with sticker prices north of $200K and asking prices of around $80k-$95k.
If you want all the options, you’ll probably end up in an “S”. If you want the best value, you’ll end up in a GTS. If you want the cheapest car, you’ll get a Turbo.
I’m leaning towards GTS but would settle for a Turbo or S in the right color combination. Good luck in your search, that’s half the fun!
I stand by my original statement. I hunted for 2 years. The GTS typically is only more $$$ next to the same year turbo, because the GTS has lower miles, is better taken car of, and has more options. No use in splitting hairs over it. The GTS and Turbo are similar but still different cars. You should buy the one you want, not which one you think is the better value! Just because the car takes the bigger hit in the first 2-3 years doesn't mean its not going to hold its value "better" after that. The S's with low miles, although they do take a bigger depreciation hit, hold their value very well for that second or third buyer because there just aren't a lot of them. They are always going to be worth more than the GTS and the Turbo, same year, same miles, same options. Always.
No one should be buying a Porsche or any car for resale value. Well unless its a GT2, or GT3... Clearly, buying used will save you a crap ton of money. The larger the original msrp was, the more that car is going to depreciate in the first 3 years. The more of those really expensive options you have, the bigger the hit becomes for that first buyer, and the better "deal" that second or third owner is going to get.
Besides if the Turbo is less than a GTS, same year, with the same miles, and similar options, it IS a better value isn't it LOL!!
09-07-2018, 01:20 AM
#30
I have been hunting around in the recent weeks for a Turbo and Turbo S and have found that many "turbo" Panameras were actually newer turbo 6 setups which throws the curve. I also found a bunch of Turbo S models that were ultimately Turbo models with an S sticker on the back or simply mis-labeled by the dealer.
On the GTS front, if you get the Sport Chrono package in a Turbo, I believe it is the same ride height since they both have Sport and Sport Plus modes. If you get the sport exhaust, the sounds are a bit better but the GTS simply sounds awesome. Hard to beat that aural input. The Turbo S is mostly a package of the go fast goodies normally considered options on the Turbo like the PDCC, dynamic lights, Sport Chrono, Sport Exhaust, etc. The extra HP and overboost function are nice but can be tuned into the Turbo but, the S, tuned, still has an edge, albeit smaller, over a tuned Turbo. So, all comes down to finding one you like for color and options. For me, one of the things I really wanted was the four zone air, heated and cooled seats front and back along with the Sport wheel. Took some time to find the right mix, but there were a couple floating around the met the need. Went the Turbo S route since I really wanted something solidly in the 11 second quarter mile range.
On the GTS front, if you get the Sport Chrono package in a Turbo, I believe it is the same ride height since they both have Sport and Sport Plus modes. If you get the sport exhaust, the sounds are a bit better but the GTS simply sounds awesome. Hard to beat that aural input. The Turbo S is mostly a package of the go fast goodies normally considered options on the Turbo like the PDCC, dynamic lights, Sport Chrono, Sport Exhaust, etc. The extra HP and overboost function are nice but can be tuned into the Turbo but, the S, tuned, still has an edge, albeit smaller, over a tuned Turbo. So, all comes down to finding one you like for color and options. For me, one of the things I really wanted was the four zone air, heated and cooled seats front and back along with the Sport wheel. Took some time to find the right mix, but there were a couple floating around the met the need. Went the Turbo S route since I really wanted something solidly in the 11 second quarter mile range.
