smoothound

Folks - Any news on if, or when, diesel engines will return for Panamera? or are Porsche now moving away from them except for 4X4s?


The hybrid Panameras are just not cost effective in the UK for my driving need - unless I did 80,000 miles per annum and around 50% of that not travelling more than 10 miles from home.

cheers

ajriches01

I cannot see them bringing them back at all - Porsche is moving away from the technology generally. Be interested in the maths involved with the above?

smoothound

Firstly, I am disappointed in politicians and manufacturers knee jerk reaction to diesels air quality impact - these are virtually eliminated by new standards - the industry has invested millions in meets these tough new rules - and the widely published fashionable city-wide bans mean that the real culprits:- lorries busses, high mileage taxi's and older privately owned diesels etc - will now tend to have their replacement plans delayed - extending their use - and hence their pollution - counter productive!! and bad for climate change!!!

what's the point of agreeing and investing in meeting tough new air quality related engine standards if they will be banned anyways.

as for the calc - redoing my calc I think I was exaggerating (typical pessimist) - but the principle stands i think....

You can get the raw data here https://ev-database.uk/car/1083/Pors...era-4-E-Hybrid - coupled with sanity-check facts like electricity being around 18p per kWh in the UK - which equates to around £7.50 per UK Gal - petrol is around £5.60/gal - electric drive systems being around 90%+ efficient at the driven wheel - petrol engines being around 30-40% thermal efficient at the driven wheel

from web-site - Ave 21 miles range on a (full) useable charge of 11kWh means 21 miles costs around £1.98 (Uk tariff) - so to cover 30 miles which I reckon is a reasonable range for 1 gallon petrol - it would cost £2.83. Current UK petrol cost is around £5.60 per gallon - so for each 30 miles electric saves around £1.80. Now the extra-over cost of leasing a hybrid over 4 years is around £100 per month - so that means I have to cover 1,666 miles on electric only each month to break even.

I reckoned I would use around 30% electric only miles - the rest being petrol. So that means I would have to cover 5,533 total miles per month to break even = 66.400 miles per annum.

But I only do around 8,000 miles per annum so not cost effective.

In fact it is very difficult to do such a truly high mileage using short trips of around 20 miles each if you include charging time. So it would be unrealistic to assume a high % of a high milage lifestyle to be done on electric only. As soon as you start doing long trips,which is more likely to achieve a high annual mileage - then the % of electric only running drops significantly.

Additionally, if you consider recharging using power form the petrol engine - as a way to make it more cost effective - it falls down at the first fence. Charging batteries from the petrol engine will be at a thermal efficiency of around 30-40% so each kWh stored will cost perhaps double for the same kWh calorific value as purchased petrol energy. not good.

I am sure that a lot of electric energy can be recovered from braking etc - but that is already factored into the range on electric only - so is a nul benefit when running on electric only.

When burning petrol, if on a long trip (needed for the higher mileages where hybrid might start to make more sense) - then I imagine the energy recovered would be relatively small since constant speed is more likely.

So in practice I reckon it would be very difficult to recover the extra-overcost of hybrid in real life - unless you are doing very high milages made up of very short trips with charging in between.

And I like driving Porkers - but I am not sure that I would want to spend many hours per day in one - doing short start-stop electric only trips - just to try and break even.

Just my opinion.

hope it helps

cheers

ajriches01

Good maths! For sure each type of car needs to suit your lifestyle. So for me, it's 5 days a week commuting to a train station a few miles away, at which charging is FREE. At the weekend it's the sports exhaust and the rumble of the v6.

"Real world" mpg for a charged plug-in hybrid can be divided into 3: sub 25 mile journeys - electricity only cost as per the above. 30 - 60 mile journeys - 70 mpg to 45 mpg. 60 mils+ but motorway cruising mostly - 30mpg. If you are travelling the country on a weekly basis then the additional 10mpg from the Diesel is going to be a big plus and having driven one, I can confirm that it is a magnificent engine. They are also going to be "cheap" to pick-up second hand from dealers so if you are happy with the depreciation, call around some dealers and get a pre year-end bargain!

But in some ways I think you are missing the point...the car is going to cost you circa £100k - whilst saving a few £s on fuel is definitely a plus and adds to the feel good factor, if MPG is your real concern then buy a 1.6 CDTI Vauxhall for the week and a 911 GTS for the weekend

smoothound

Thanks for the advise - I just supplied the maths to cos I was asked to; and, it explains why the hybrid is not for me. MPG is of low importance to me. I really like the Panamera V8 diesel; its just so effortless and has a good range - would be my preferred engine. So if no diesel, then I will either go with a petrol engined Pana - or an alternative car.

I want a long-legged, comfy and practical GT for European gallivanting, so a 911 wouldn't figure at all. I would want PTS and personally specced Pana, so a pre-registered is not attractive.

I'm just disappointed that so many manufacturers - in trying to read the sales impact of politician's local air quality 'follycies' - that fly in the face of international policy - are sacrificing climate change for insignificant benefits in air quality just to wave a flag. And the much vaunted hybrid-tech is far from a silver bullet - bit of a 'sticking-plaster' solution for many drivers .

Full electric, like the forthcoming Mission-E is not practical yet - and has other long-term strategic and enviro-issues that are being glossed over.

Other IC fuels hold more long-term promise IMHO.

Anyways it's no biggy for me - just mild disappointment that my preferred spec car wont be around to choose - consumer choice being eroded for doubtful reasons.

I may go another way.

Cheers

ajriches01

I drove 3,000 miles over the summer across Europe in mine - 4 people including baby. Relaxed autobahn 150mph to Swiss mountain roads at pace. Each one a pleasure in different ways in a car that turns more heads than a 911.

Don't go another way!!!