Panamera going bye-bye in the US?
11-12-2019, 02:40 PM
#1
Panamera going bye-bye in the US?
I was calling around for extended warranty quotes and the folks at Beverly Hills Porsche told me that they are being told the Panamera will not continue in the US beyond it's current iteration. I've read it before but this was a little more interesting because it's the first time someone has said something specific: Panamera continues in China but discontinued in the US with timing said to be after the Taycan was fully outed across the line. I don't see them discontinuing the Panamera until they at least prove they can move the Taycan in numbers that suggest US buyers are willing to go electric with their Porsche but maybe I'm wrong?
I'd like to stay out of electric versus ICE discussions which can be had all over the internet and just stick to whether you think this may be true or not and further if you think it's a viable plan to move Panamera buyers over to the Taycan. For myself I don't think my next car is a Taycan. Everyone I know that owns a Tesla use it locally and charge in the garage overnight because they don't want to hassle with going out of their way or waiting on a charge and I know I don't want to, not nearly enough infrastructure yet to get me in a happy place. It's also smaller and that's not good in this case as I see it, I wanted to get out of a crossover and into something better to drive but still have a useful vehicle for the day to day. It's size is part of it's charm for me. Those are the two things that stand out to me.
I'd like to stay out of electric versus ICE discussions which can be had all over the internet and just stick to whether you think this may be true or not and further if you think it's a viable plan to move Panamera buyers over to the Taycan. For myself I don't think my next car is a Taycan. Everyone I know that owns a Tesla use it locally and charge in the garage overnight because they don't want to hassle with going out of their way or waiting on a charge and I know I don't want to, not nearly enough infrastructure yet to get me in a happy place. It's also smaller and that's not good in this case as I see it, I wanted to get out of a crossover and into something better to drive but still have a useful vehicle for the day to day. It's size is part of it's charm for me. Those are the two things that stand out to me.
11-12-2019, 05:00 PM
#2
I was calling around for extended warranty quotes and the folks at Beverly Hills Porsche told me that they are being told the Panamera will not continue in the US beyond it's current iteration. I've read it before but this was a little more interesting because it's the first time someone has said something specific: Panamera continues in China but discontinued in the US with timing said to be after the Taycan was fully outed across the line. I don't see them discontinuing the Panamera until they at least prove they can move the Taycan in numbers that suggest US buyers are willing to go electric with their Porsche but maybe I'm wrong?
I'd like to stay out of electric versus ICE discussions which can be had all over the internet and just stick to whether you think this may be true or not and further if you think it's a viable plan to move Panamera buyers over to the Taycan. For myself I don't think my next car is a Taycan. Everyone I know that owns a Tesla use it locally and charge in the garage overnight because they don't want to hassle with going out of their way or waiting on a charge and I know I don't want to, not nearly enough infrastructure yet to get me in a happy place. It's also smaller and that's not good in this case as I see it, I wanted to get out of a crossover and into something better to drive but still have a useful vehicle for the day to day. It's size is part of it's charm for me. Those are the two things that stand out to me.
I'd like to stay out of electric versus ICE discussions which can be had all over the internet and just stick to whether you think this may be true or not and further if you think it's a viable plan to move Panamera buyers over to the Taycan. For myself I don't think my next car is a Taycan. Everyone I know that owns a Tesla use it locally and charge in the garage overnight because they don't want to hassle with going out of their way or waiting on a charge and I know I don't want to, not nearly enough infrastructure yet to get me in a happy place. It's also smaller and that's not good in this case as I see it, I wanted to get out of a crossover and into something better to drive but still have a useful vehicle for the day to day. It's size is part of it's charm for me. Those are the two things that stand out to me.
I cant see the taycan being a huge seller
11-12-2019, 05:32 PM
#3
Intermediate
Yikes, this is the first I'm hearing of it and I agree....seems a bit premature to kill off the Panamera in the US until the Taycan has proven it's staying power. Will be interesting to see what happens next though.
11-12-2019, 06:01 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
It would be a shame, for sure. I've heard that two versions of Panamera that sell much better in Europe than here in the USA are the Sport Turismo trim and the E-Hybrid versions; I can't understand this personally, because the Sport Turismo E-Hybrid is (by far) my favorite version of Panamera (and I bought a special-ordered MY2018 one of these). I personally don't understand the huge popularity of the "sedan" version of the new-gen Panamera over the Sport Turismo version; most "magazine" and YouTube reviewers say that the Sport Turismo version looks much better, and I agree with that. I'm very interested in the 4S "level" of Taycan and hope that there are even cheaper AWD versions to come, but I won't buy the currently available trim version of Taycan; if the forthcoming Cross Turismo version ends up being like the prototypes being shown off this past year by Porsche, I will be a possible buyer (the spy shots released of it in the last month or so seem to indicate a shortened version of the Sport Turismo Panamera, which shouldn't be surprising, I guess, but it does look different from the prototypes they were showing off, and not necessarily in a better way).
I've been following the Porsche news closely on all this, and my take is that Porsche will continue to expand their hybrid models as well as their all-electric models. By 2030, Porsche expects that they'll be making only one ICE-only vehicle (that being the 911). I hear that Porsche will introduce a Macan E-Hybrid when they release the Macan BEV in a couple of years. My guess is that Panamera will continue at least in PHEV form for several years to come, even if ICE versions of Panamera are phased out. And having owned both ICE-only and PHEV Panameras, I can say that the new E-Hybrids are much more fun to drive and own.
I've been following the Porsche news closely on all this, and my take is that Porsche will continue to expand their hybrid models as well as their all-electric models. By 2030, Porsche expects that they'll be making only one ICE-only vehicle (that being the 911). I hear that Porsche will introduce a Macan E-Hybrid when they release the Macan BEV in a couple of years. My guess is that Panamera will continue at least in PHEV form for several years to come, even if ICE versions of Panamera are phased out. And having owned both ICE-only and PHEV Panameras, I can say that the new E-Hybrids are much more fun to drive and own.
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L39E (01-22-2020)
11-12-2019, 07:11 PM
#5
I know 4 door sedans are not very popular in the US and many manufacturers have discontinued. However, the Panamera is a very strong alternative to BMW and Merc models and I don’t know that Porsche would want to cede this segment. We cross-shopped the Cayenne but really didn’t want another SUV and a pure EV won’t fit the bill. Panamera has kept us in Porsche for a 2nd vehicle as we needed a good 4-seater.
11-12-2019, 07:48 PM
#6
11-12-2019, 08:18 PM
#7
It seems to me that Porsche has been walking back their plans for moving to EV somewhat; it's not in the timeline it's in how they now append things like "but we'll have to see how it goes" or "that could change" to those timelines. I meant to add in above that sales of the Panamera are actually improving both in the US and world wide with the latter number being 38,443 finding homes world wide and just over 8000 sales in the US. Both numbers represent substantial improvement and don't sound like the kind of numbers you use to discontinue sales of the Panamera in the US. Certainly you're not going to stop making it altogether and 8000 in the US would seemingly justify the expense of bringing it over, that's not far off the 9400 moved in the EU. I cant find the logic in it, I keep coming back to not true or I'm missing something.
edit... Glad to hear it amelen, you got in there while I was typing.
edit... Glad to hear it amelen, you got in there while I was typing.
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11-12-2019, 09:27 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Whether true or viable, I have no information. However, there is a VAG precedent with the Touareg-Atlas migration in the US that lends some support to the Panamera-Taycan migration.
11-12-2019, 11:05 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
I know 4 door sedans are not very popular in the US and many manufacturers have discontinued. However, the Panamera is a very strong alternative to BMW and Merc models and I don’t know that Porsche would want to cede this segment. We cross-shopped the Cayenne but really didn’t want another SUV and a pure EV won’t fit the bill. Panamera has kept us in Porsche for a 2nd vehicle as we needed a good 4-seater.
Also, it's rather a myth that 4-door sedans are not very popular; here in 2019 in the US, among the top 20 best-selling vehicles, seven are 4-door sedans, with three in the top ten (Toyota Camry at no. 6, Honda Civic at no. 9, and Toyota Corolla at no. 10 -- followed by Honda Accord at no. 12). Toyota sold 176k Camrys alone in the first half of 2019 in the USA; for comparison, Porsche sold only 57k vehicles across all models in the entire calendar year 2018 in the USA. I think that the American automakers just don't know how to make decent sedans, outside of Tesla (one could argue that American automakers can't make ANYTHING decent except maybe pickup trucks, outside of Tesla), which is why their sedans haven't sold so well.
12-31-2019, 06:51 AM
#10
I have heard "noise" (from the HQ) that too much has been spent for the Taycan !
If you look at the last sales figures, if I would be on the Board, I would say "achtung big time".
I think that the $ invested on the design, production and promotion of the Taycan have hurt the "normal needed promotion" of the other current ICV models.
Hopefully, it seems that the Cayenne is there (again !!!) to bring serious margins to the firm.
"Going electric" when it is completely out of the dna of such large firm could be quite dangerous.
I see already few BIG problems : The car business is CHANGING. (Do you remember when the photo business changed from film to digital cameras ?)
In the "past", the power train (talking about engine and transmission) was one of the very critical part to make the best car. Porsche was (..or still IS) very good at doing that.
Platform and suspensions was important too.
Problems:
On electric, NO SINGLE piece of knowledge about engine and transmission is "movable" from ICV to BEV !
EVERYTHING IS LOST !
About transmission : ..good bye, no more !
What is the BIGGEST difficulty to built an BEV ????
Well, very easy to say : IT IS THE BATTERIES. Do you have seen any of the big great German car manufacturers talking about making their own batteries ??
No, for now, they are just looking for getting these from abroad !!!!!
OK, you can say, when Porsche started to make sport cars, it did not build the engine and transmission, they just got these from Volkswagen !
Then, in the "past", as soon any new car was sold, ..it became immediately the best friend (well, not optimized language here !!), as I should say "become an addict to", ..the oil industry!
And this is a real bad manner: Yes, the best ICV has a ratio of efficiency in the range of 15%. Or : when you put 100 gallons of gasoline in the tank, 15 are used to move the car, ..and 85 are doing nothing else that heating the planet.
If you look at an BEV, you are easily at 90% of efficiency, ..or 6 time better than an ICV.
May be at this point, you understand why the "family" that did own Aramco (the largest oil Co.) ..just put it on the market, (for trillions of dollars !!) ..i.e.: the right time to take the money, ..and enjoy
Should add also that in the ICV business model, the complexity of the power train do require car manufacturers to have a good network of dealers, ..to provide the required maintenance and repair services that such complex powertrain do require. This activity (added by the resales of the parts) DO represent a big part of the finances that "fuel" the dealer network.
If Porsche would becomes full electric, no more services, oil changes, repairs and etc.. Then : BIG question : How these dealers will stay alive ?
Did you realized that Tesla has no dealers ? An electric car is close to a fridge on wheels : no need of oil changes or whatever fix for a "check engine light" !
Going back to Porsche making BEV : Yes, it would looks good, yes, it will be well built, yes, it will handle extremely well, ..but for the rest, I doubt we can expect more.
Yes, a Tesla is still not manufactured like a Porsche, but, the most important part of any Tesla cars (the batteries), ..are made by Tesla, or by very-very close collaborations (Toshiba).
Another point is is ..next to the batteries: the charging points : Tesla has nothing in its DNA that would say : "we build a car, ..but then, we let it been fueled by the oil Co."
More to the Opposite, something like : We build our cars ..using our own batteries, ..and for the high end, we let our best customer to recharge these for free, with our own "refuel" network. (In the high end models, the cost of the charges, ..is part of the initial cost of the parts ! You can try to think more on this one, this is an incredible model. (..taking in account that the company ALSO own "Solar City", that build and install the solar panels that feed the free re-charges ! Yes, the truth in that business model is that a part of the sale prices of the Tesla "S" and "X" simply paid some solar panels inside the same company !
Marketing results : Getting a Tesla X or S, ..together with FREE recharges during all the time of your car ownership, ..or another one without this advantage ?
(All of that, with a business model that is safe and good for the company ! Yes, hard to understand as even the analysts at Wall Street, have not yet understood that, or, (?) ..they much prefer the short term huge profit related to the current trillions dollars oil industry !!)
May be another little (stupid) point that to me, shows that Porsche is not ready to make a BEV : Calling some of the Taycan models "turbo" or turbo s" just looks like they still have the nostalgia for something that smell oil. ..And just forgot that oil is over. Would you have Imagined what if Ford would have called the Ford T with something like Ford Hay ?
Would you think this would be good marketing idea for showing a change to electric ?
If I would push further, I would ask myself why Porsche would have "made a deal" with Boeing ? Is it hype ??? or does it make any sense ?
First, they may have been better with Airbus, or even more better with Dassault Industries *** !
Or, more seriously, they should have tried to make a deal with Tesla instead !
I still think that those coming days, having batteries should be better than having wings (..I'm talking for cars !!)
*** Why Dassault Industries ? beside making great planes (i.e.: Mirage, Rafale fighters or, Falcon "biz jets"), Dassault Industries makes also the BEST design tools that is existing on Earth : Catia. Have you heard the story of Audi, the first time that they won Le Mans ?
Well, they designed the entire car using Catia, and when done, still using Catia, they try to "run" it for 24 hours. Sure, few parts broke (..in the software simulator !). They fix them (design fix) ..and run it again. After multiple iterations, they came to a design that was "solid" ..and "well" tested !
Then, (only then), they did build it, ..and bring it to Le Mans. Result : a win !
Yes, Catia, is an real incredible piece of software !
I would have think that such firm could have brought more synergies to Porsche ..than Boeing ! (Ah, was close to forget : one of the subs of Dassault Industries has sold a lot of VERY expensive Porsche : ever seen a co named Artcurial ??)
Well, after 30 years of 911 non stop as daily, and then almost 6 years of Panamera, ..stopped by an HORRIBLE bad fix (under CPO), this after 4 valves bend, because of broken bolts made with the wrong material, what will be my next car ?
Simply an another Panamera, and most probably a PTT (non S), maybe trying to save one more V8, as in the long term, I doubt those will survive !
Why not a BEV ?
Simply because with the current 100kWh tank, it still force for a "refill" during typical day of tour, when we often pass 500 or 600 miles per day.
(In my view, for our usage, if a BEV would have 200kWh, then, it would last (during one day) longer than us, so, any hotel, office, or other place to let us us sleep, would also let the car to be recharged, and this, during a time, ..that we just do not care about, to the moment that it would be fully recharged on the next morning.
For my eyes, when a BEV will have an autonomy larger than the humans that this car will transport, ..then this will be the end of the ICVs.
(..Sure except for some collectors that want to still have some good feeling and good pleasure of the old bad days
(..Like today, the people that still ride horses !)
..And I think, we are getting very close to that. (Looks to me that the first BEV that could have 200kWh should most probably be the Tesla "GT" !!)
But before that, I want to have another good Panamera.
If you look at the last sales figures, if I would be on the Board, I would say "achtung big time".
I think that the $ invested on the design, production and promotion of the Taycan have hurt the "normal needed promotion" of the other current ICV models.
Hopefully, it seems that the Cayenne is there (again !!!) to bring serious margins to the firm.
"Going electric" when it is completely out of the dna of such large firm could be quite dangerous.
I see already few BIG problems : The car business is CHANGING. (Do you remember when the photo business changed from film to digital cameras ?)
In the "past", the power train (talking about engine and transmission) was one of the very critical part to make the best car. Porsche was (..or still IS) very good at doing that.
Platform and suspensions was important too.
Problems:
On electric, NO SINGLE piece of knowledge about engine and transmission is "movable" from ICV to BEV !
EVERYTHING IS LOST !
About transmission : ..good bye, no more !
What is the BIGGEST difficulty to built an BEV ????
Well, very easy to say : IT IS THE BATTERIES. Do you have seen any of the big great German car manufacturers talking about making their own batteries ??
No, for now, they are just looking for getting these from abroad !!!!!
OK, you can say, when Porsche started to make sport cars, it did not build the engine and transmission, they just got these from Volkswagen !
Then, in the "past", as soon any new car was sold, ..it became immediately the best friend (well, not optimized language here !!), as I should say "become an addict to", ..the oil industry!
And this is a real bad manner: Yes, the best ICV has a ratio of efficiency in the range of 15%. Or : when you put 100 gallons of gasoline in the tank, 15 are used to move the car, ..and 85 are doing nothing else that heating the planet.
If you look at an BEV, you are easily at 90% of efficiency, ..or 6 time better than an ICV.
May be at this point, you understand why the "family" that did own Aramco (the largest oil Co.) ..just put it on the market, (for trillions of dollars !!) ..i.e.: the right time to take the money, ..and enjoy
Should add also that in the ICV business model, the complexity of the power train do require car manufacturers to have a good network of dealers, ..to provide the required maintenance and repair services that such complex powertrain do require. This activity (added by the resales of the parts) DO represent a big part of the finances that "fuel" the dealer network.
If Porsche would becomes full electric, no more services, oil changes, repairs and etc.. Then : BIG question : How these dealers will stay alive ?
Did you realized that Tesla has no dealers ? An electric car is close to a fridge on wheels : no need of oil changes or whatever fix for a "check engine light" !
Going back to Porsche making BEV : Yes, it would looks good, yes, it will be well built, yes, it will handle extremely well, ..but for the rest, I doubt we can expect more.
Yes, a Tesla is still not manufactured like a Porsche, but, the most important part of any Tesla cars (the batteries), ..are made by Tesla, or by very-very close collaborations (Toshiba).
Another point is is ..next to the batteries: the charging points : Tesla has nothing in its DNA that would say : "we build a car, ..but then, we let it been fueled by the oil Co."
More to the Opposite, something like : We build our cars ..using our own batteries, ..and for the high end, we let our best customer to recharge these for free, with our own "refuel" network. (In the high end models, the cost of the charges, ..is part of the initial cost of the parts ! You can try to think more on this one, this is an incredible model. (..taking in account that the company ALSO own "Solar City", that build and install the solar panels that feed the free re-charges ! Yes, the truth in that business model is that a part of the sale prices of the Tesla "S" and "X" simply paid some solar panels inside the same company !
Marketing results : Getting a Tesla X or S, ..together with FREE recharges during all the time of your car ownership, ..or another one without this advantage ?
(All of that, with a business model that is safe and good for the company ! Yes, hard to understand as even the analysts at Wall Street, have not yet understood that, or, (?) ..they much prefer the short term huge profit related to the current trillions dollars oil industry !!)
May be another little (stupid) point that to me, shows that Porsche is not ready to make a BEV : Calling some of the Taycan models "turbo" or turbo s" just looks like they still have the nostalgia for something that smell oil. ..And just forgot that oil is over. Would you have Imagined what if Ford would have called the Ford T with something like Ford Hay ?
Would you think this would be good marketing idea for showing a change to electric ?
If I would push further, I would ask myself why Porsche would have "made a deal" with Boeing ? Is it hype ??? or does it make any sense ?
First, they may have been better with Airbus, or even more better with Dassault Industries *** !
Or, more seriously, they should have tried to make a deal with Tesla instead !
I still think that those coming days, having batteries should be better than having wings (..I'm talking for cars !!)
*** Why Dassault Industries ? beside making great planes (i.e.: Mirage, Rafale fighters or, Falcon "biz jets"), Dassault Industries makes also the BEST design tools that is existing on Earth : Catia. Have you heard the story of Audi, the first time that they won Le Mans ?
Well, they designed the entire car using Catia, and when done, still using Catia, they try to "run" it for 24 hours. Sure, few parts broke (..in the software simulator !). They fix them (design fix) ..and run it again. After multiple iterations, they came to a design that was "solid" ..and "well" tested !
Then, (only then), they did build it, ..and bring it to Le Mans. Result : a win !
Yes, Catia, is an real incredible piece of software !
I would have think that such firm could have brought more synergies to Porsche ..than Boeing ! (Ah, was close to forget : one of the subs of Dassault Industries has sold a lot of VERY expensive Porsche : ever seen a co named Artcurial ??)
Well, after 30 years of 911 non stop as daily, and then almost 6 years of Panamera, ..stopped by an HORRIBLE bad fix (under CPO), this after 4 valves bend, because of broken bolts made with the wrong material, what will be my next car ?
Simply an another Panamera, and most probably a PTT (non S), maybe trying to save one more V8, as in the long term, I doubt those will survive !
Why not a BEV ?
Simply because with the current 100kWh tank, it still force for a "refill" during typical day of tour, when we often pass 500 or 600 miles per day.
(In my view, for our usage, if a BEV would have 200kWh, then, it would last (during one day) longer than us, so, any hotel, office, or other place to let us us sleep, would also let the car to be recharged, and this, during a time, ..that we just do not care about, to the moment that it would be fully recharged on the next morning.
For my eyes, when a BEV will have an autonomy larger than the humans that this car will transport, ..then this will be the end of the ICVs.
(..Sure except for some collectors that want to still have some good feeling and good pleasure of the old bad days
(..Like today, the people that still ride horses !)..And I think, we are getting very close to that. (Looks to me that the first BEV that could have 200kWh should most probably be the Tesla "GT" !!)
But before that, I want to have another good Panamera.
Last edited by GVA-SFO; 01-03-2020 at 11:23 PM.
12-31-2019, 08:31 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
I would like to think that the Panamera serves that niche of the car buying market that the Taycan can't quite fulfill. At the end of the day, I love having a car with true V8 engine sound, room to fit people in the 2nd row, and the utility to put stuff in the back of the car. Even if Porsche discontinues the Panamera, I cannot see myself buying a Taycan in the future....I may have to go to another model or brand but I'll cross that bridge when the time comes to buy another car.
12-31-2019, 04:10 PM
#15