2017 Panamera (Loaner) SUCKS
11-21-2017, 01:26 AM
#31
Well, in my opinion a Panamera (or a Cayenne) should simply NOT exist without Air suspension.
but:
The Panamera should be offered with manual gearbox, like it used to be in Europe.
And this after a LOT of miles with two Cayenne (one S and one Turbo, both with air suspension) and one Panamera 4S, also with air suspension.
(To date, an experience of about 200k miles with these 3 cars.)
I NEVER come to like PDK, for me, this is only a stupid computer taking care of changing gears to minimize CO2 numbers. PDK is for me nothing else than the infamous software that minimize the Diesel emisions (well talken about at the "mother company"). I.e.: in normal (default mode), you leave your driveway, ..and 100 yards later, you are in 7th gear. Or, you bought a Porsche, ..that get the power response of a "Pinto".
If you go to a more aggressive mode (Sport or Sport Plus), ..do you REALLY think that the CO2 values written in the specs are the one you get ??
This is just another big joke, that is addressed in a marketing way, in order to also catch customers that do not know how to deal with a stick shift.
For the open windows effect, it is so well explained above, ..that I do not thing any further words are needed.
About, the Panamera (I still have a 4S, but expect to change it against a Turbo soon), is the BEST car I ever own. It is a fabulous GT, we use it to do long trip, and it is a real flying carpet, that, that beside having a fantastic handling, have good power and super great brakes.
Imo, nothing beat this car to eat miles.
For the Cayenne, after more than 110'000 miles with a Cayenne S, since about 3 years, we got a Turbo. The "new" Turbo is MUCH less comfy than the "old" S (??? Why ???), but it is still a great sport utility car. Towing with it, is just incredible. We have an heavy boat (6,000 pounds), and still it is a piece of cake (including long rides like San Francisco to Newport Beach). And when towing the Boxster to track, very often, looking at the mirror, I say to myself "who the hell is tailgating me that close ?", ..before thinking, "oups, that's my car", simply forgetting that I have a trailer, as ..I just do not feel it ! (Ok, it is true that my (track/fun) Boxster is a good weight watcher addict.)
(You can brake and everything stop, ..or you can accelerate such carriage to pass a truck, and do that more easily than any "normal car" !
But when "Grand Touring" is the plan, we would NEVER take the CTT. ALLWAYS the Panamera. (More than 60,000 miles with it, with many long trips.) It is really a fantastic car to eat miles
The problems ? Well, the (left bank) cam adjuster did blow, (and was EXTREMELY badly repaired by a dealer that is totally technically incompetent in the S.F. Bay area), the center coolant water return pipes blow up too, the high pressure fuel pump died, the front bushings did too, after 50,000 miles, and etc.. A real super car, but imo, you REALLY want to have it under warranty, ..or it could be a quite expensive animal.
My experience is also to NOT expect anything from the PCNA "customer specialists". They are not giving customer any help, they only will support the dealer, and ignore the customer situation. By the way, it is not a surprise when you learn that they come from Volkswagen, that has in my opinion (we had also two of "these") the WORSE service in the USA that a decent car customer can think about. So, having these guys at PCNA is imo the beginning of the end. True that soon, cars will be as simple as a fridge (electric), and I doubt that Porsche will survive in this era. (I.e.: giving up on the LMP1 series is already a pretty good sign in this direction !)
Well, being back on today's cars:
Altogether, my experience: The Panamera is NOT a car that sucks at all, but a fantastic car.
(Before that, I had multiple 911's as daily, non stop for about 30 years and, beside these 911's, 5 x Range Rover and two BMW 7.)
As usual, my two cents!
but:
The Panamera should be offered with manual gearbox, like it used to be in Europe.
And this after a LOT of miles with two Cayenne (one S and one Turbo, both with air suspension) and one Panamera 4S, also with air suspension.
(To date, an experience of about 200k miles with these 3 cars.)
I NEVER come to like PDK, for me, this is only a stupid computer taking care of changing gears to minimize CO2 numbers. PDK is for me nothing else than the infamous software that minimize the Diesel emisions (well talken about at the "mother company"). I.e.: in normal (default mode), you leave your driveway, ..and 100 yards later, you are in 7th gear. Or, you bought a Porsche, ..that get the power response of a "Pinto".
If you go to a more aggressive mode (Sport or Sport Plus), ..do you REALLY think that the CO2 values written in the specs are the one you get ??
This is just another big joke, that is addressed in a marketing way, in order to also catch customers that do not know how to deal with a stick shift.
For the open windows effect, it is so well explained above, ..that I do not thing any further words are needed.
About, the Panamera (I still have a 4S, but expect to change it against a Turbo soon), is the BEST car I ever own. It is a fabulous GT, we use it to do long trip, and it is a real flying carpet, that, that beside having a fantastic handling, have good power and super great brakes.
Imo, nothing beat this car to eat miles.
For the Cayenne, after more than 110'000 miles with a Cayenne S, since about 3 years, we got a Turbo. The "new" Turbo is MUCH less comfy than the "old" S (??? Why ???), but it is still a great sport utility car. Towing with it, is just incredible. We have an heavy boat (6,000 pounds), and still it is a piece of cake (including long rides like San Francisco to Newport Beach). And when towing the Boxster to track, very often, looking at the mirror, I say to myself "who the hell is tailgating me that close ?", ..before thinking, "oups, that's my car", simply forgetting that I have a trailer, as ..I just do not feel it ! (Ok, it is true that my (track/fun) Boxster is a good weight watcher addict.)
(You can brake and everything stop, ..or you can accelerate such carriage to pass a truck, and do that more easily than any "normal car" !
But when "Grand Touring" is the plan, we would NEVER take the CTT. ALLWAYS the Panamera. (More than 60,000 miles with it, with many long trips.) It is really a fantastic car to eat miles
The problems ? Well, the (left bank) cam adjuster did blow, (and was EXTREMELY badly repaired by a dealer that is totally technically incompetent in the S.F. Bay area), the center coolant water return pipes blow up too, the high pressure fuel pump died, the front bushings did too, after 50,000 miles, and etc.. A real super car, but imo, you REALLY want to have it under warranty, ..or it could be a quite expensive animal.
My experience is also to NOT expect anything from the PCNA "customer specialists". They are not giving customer any help, they only will support the dealer, and ignore the customer situation. By the way, it is not a surprise when you learn that they come from Volkswagen, that has in my opinion (we had also two of "these") the WORSE service in the USA that a decent car customer can think about. So, having these guys at PCNA is imo the beginning of the end. True that soon, cars will be as simple as a fridge (electric), and I doubt that Porsche will survive in this era. (I.e.: giving up on the LMP1 series is already a pretty good sign in this direction !)
Well, being back on today's cars:
Altogether, my experience: The Panamera is NOT a car that sucks at all, but a fantastic car.
(Before that, I had multiple 911's as daily, non stop for about 30 years and, beside these 911's, 5 x Range Rover and two BMW 7.)
As usual, my two cents!
Last edited by GVA-SFO; 11-21-2017 at 01:50 AM.
11-21-2017, 06:16 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
I know this is too much information, but here is the explanation from a physicist for the window resonance -
"Air passing over an opening forms tiny tornadoes as it moves past the front edge of that opening. When those tornadoes, or vortices, reach the opening's back edge, they make a wave of pressure that pushes air into and out of the car. Since sound is nothing more than waves of pressure, this makes noise. If you're driving slowly the effect's not too bad, but if you drive fast enough, you reach a resonant point. Imagine I stand by your open car window and use my science powers to push on the air inside the car, compressing it a bit. The car air then springs back out, then back in, then back out, then back in. With each cycle of moving out and in, the amount of air movement gets smaller until it completely dies away. But if I push on the car air again just as it finishes springing back out and is headed back in, and I do that over and over again, the amount of air movement gets a whole lot bigger and doesn't die away. That's what happens when you drive fast enough. The vortices keep pressing on the air in your car just at the right time to make big pressure waves that we can feel and hear.
The technical term for this effect is the Helmholtz resonance, though car people call it "side window buffeting". Back in the 1850s, a scientist named Hermann von Helmholtz showed that the sound's pitch depends on the size of your container of air and of the opening. The bigger the container of air, the lower the pitch. The smaller the opening, the higher the pitch. If you blow over a bottle, you get a medium-pitch whistle. Since a car's a big container of air, you get a low throbbing noise.
Driving faster won't do much to fix the problem. That resonant point I mentioned isn't really a point, it's more of a smooth peak. As you drive faster, the rate at which the whums occur speed up and the loudness goes up. Eventually, if you drive a lot faster, you'll move past the resonance and the whums will die away, but that's not much help if you don't want to get a ticket. The only real ways to fix it are to open the window more, which changes the resonant frequency; open another window, which messes up the resonance; or close your windows."
It's more noticeable in modern cars because they're more aerodynamic. And a Panamera is definitely aerodynamic.
"Air passing over an opening forms tiny tornadoes as it moves past the front edge of that opening. When those tornadoes, or vortices, reach the opening's back edge, they make a wave of pressure that pushes air into and out of the car. Since sound is nothing more than waves of pressure, this makes noise. If you're driving slowly the effect's not too bad, but if you drive fast enough, you reach a resonant point. Imagine I stand by your open car window and use my science powers to push on the air inside the car, compressing it a bit. The car air then springs back out, then back in, then back out, then back in. With each cycle of moving out and in, the amount of air movement gets smaller until it completely dies away. But if I push on the car air again just as it finishes springing back out and is headed back in, and I do that over and over again, the amount of air movement gets a whole lot bigger and doesn't die away. That's what happens when you drive fast enough. The vortices keep pressing on the air in your car just at the right time to make big pressure waves that we can feel and hear.
The technical term for this effect is the Helmholtz resonance, though car people call it "side window buffeting". Back in the 1850s, a scientist named Hermann von Helmholtz showed that the sound's pitch depends on the size of your container of air and of the opening. The bigger the container of air, the lower the pitch. The smaller the opening, the higher the pitch. If you blow over a bottle, you get a medium-pitch whistle. Since a car's a big container of air, you get a low throbbing noise.
Driving faster won't do much to fix the problem. That resonant point I mentioned isn't really a point, it's more of a smooth peak. As you drive faster, the rate at which the whums occur speed up and the loudness goes up. Eventually, if you drive a lot faster, you'll move past the resonance and the whums will die away, but that's not much help if you don't want to get a ticket. The only real ways to fix it are to open the window more, which changes the resonant frequency; open another window, which messes up the resonance; or close your windows."
It's more noticeable in modern cars because they're more aerodynamic. And a Panamera is definitely aerodynamic.
Everyone keeps saying this. But my 2003 Dodge Ram does it when the rear windows are down. No one in their right mind could EVER call a Ram aerodynamic! I've experienced this on pretty much all modern cars, not just aerodynamic ones.
02-19-2018, 09:41 PM
#33
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I have had my 2017 Panamera for four months... It is a base car, but I have the air suspension and full group of options, including 21" wheels and other options. The car is beautiful, and like the way it drives compared to the earlier Panamera versions (i have had 2011, 2013 & 2015 Panameras). I do find that the new electronics and PCM are improved in some ways, but the radio/satellite/bluetooth has been a bit wonky on mine & I just had a 2018 loaner with similar wonkiness---(however the 2018 updated version does have some improved red graphics on display). The PCM seems to have some inbred confusion between the Apple Car Play, Porsche Connect and Blue tooth, which makes it less than perfect. The transmission shift pattern and engine response is much improved over the old base Panamera. The light clunks and noises from the PDK at low speed are typical of every Porsche PDK tranny I have driven so I am used to them... In the appearance, performance and features department, the new generation Panamera is a nice improvement, but there is still room for refinement.
I do have a huge gripe about my car.. It is best described as a very subtle whirring or diesel-like sound at about 1800-2800 rpms... It comes from behind the firewall and instrument cluster on driver's side.. Its a soft clicking-ticking-whirring sound. The dealer's service advisor thought it was an issue too.. They tried to diagnose, after telling me that a couple of others have complained about same issue. They kept my car for five days and did much investigating with Porsche Tech dept, only to come up with the response that the sound is related to the fuel delivery and fuel injection system-- and there is nothing they can do. They told me that Porsche Tech Support has heard from several others who complained about same thing, but they are saying it is a characteristic of the vehicle and drivetrain. In other words, they tried to convince me that it is part of the car. I told them that they 2018 loaner did not have the noise, so they researched, and responded that the fuel and injector system on 2018's is same as 2017's and part numbers for the fuel system are the same. I told them that they replace the system and components which make the noise, but Porsche copped out and said it is a characteristic of the car... I am really pissed off about this. A 103k car should not have these unwanted and unpleasant noises... They might be subtle and unobtrusive to some folks, but it bothers the crap out of me. I am going to live with this, and I intend to escalate this with Porsche... In the meantime, I suggest that any prospective buyer of a Panamera pay attention to these issues...
I do have a huge gripe about my car.. It is best described as a very subtle whirring or diesel-like sound at about 1800-2800 rpms... It comes from behind the firewall and instrument cluster on driver's side.. Its a soft clicking-ticking-whirring sound. The dealer's service advisor thought it was an issue too.. They tried to diagnose, after telling me that a couple of others have complained about same issue. They kept my car for five days and did much investigating with Porsche Tech dept, only to come up with the response that the sound is related to the fuel delivery and fuel injection system-- and there is nothing they can do. They told me that Porsche Tech Support has heard from several others who complained about same thing, but they are saying it is a characteristic of the vehicle and drivetrain. In other words, they tried to convince me that it is part of the car. I told them that they 2018 loaner did not have the noise, so they researched, and responded that the fuel and injector system on 2018's is same as 2017's and part numbers for the fuel system are the same. I told them that they replace the system and components which make the noise, but Porsche copped out and said it is a characteristic of the car... I am really pissed off about this. A 103k car should not have these unwanted and unpleasant noises... They might be subtle and unobtrusive to some folks, but it bothers the crap out of me. I am going to live with this, and I intend to escalate this with Porsche... In the meantime, I suggest that any prospective buyer of a Panamera pay attention to these issues...
02-20-2018, 05:47 AM
#35
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Donfenn sorry to hear about your issue. I bought my new 4S in the UK in July 2017 and am glad to say I don’t have or at least can’t hear the problem you mention.
delighted with my car. The only problem I am finding is that it is too wide for most parking spaces and multi story car car parks in the UK. So I have to be choosy where I take it.
Fortunately I also have an Audi 4S which is superb and as quick and refined a drive as the P which gets left at home most of the time.
delighted with my car. The only problem I am finding is that it is too wide for most parking spaces and multi story car car parks in the UK. So I have to be choosy where I take it.
Fortunately I also have an Audi 4S which is superb and as quick and refined a drive as the P which gets left at home most of the time.
02-20-2018, 10:13 PM
#36
I have had my 2017 Panamera for four months... It is a base car, but I have the air suspension and full group of options, including 21" wheels and other options. The car is beautiful, and like the way it drives compared to the earlier Panamera versions (i have had 2011, 2013 & 2015 Panameras). I do find that the new electronics and PCM are improved in some ways, but the radio/satellite/bluetooth has been a bit wonky on mine & I just had a 2018 loaner with similar wonkiness---(however the 2018 updated version does have some improved red graphics on display). The PCM seems to have some inbred confusion between the Apple Car Play, Porsche Connect and Blue tooth, which makes it less than perfect. The transmission shift pattern and engine response is much improved over the old base Panamera. The light clunks and noises from the PDK at low speed are typical of every Porsche PDK tranny I have driven so I am used to them... In the appearance, performance and features department, the new generation Panamera is a nice improvement, but there is still room for refinement.
I do have a huge gripe about my car.. It is best described as a very subtle whirring or diesel-like sound at about 1800-2800 rpms... It comes from behind the firewall and instrument cluster on driver's side.. Its a soft clicking-ticking-whirring sound. The dealer's service advisor thought it was an issue too.. They tried to diagnose, after telling me that a couple of others have complained about same issue. They kept my car for five days and did much investigating with Porsche Tech dept, only to come up with the response that the sound is related to the fuel delivery and fuel injection system-- and there is nothing they can do. They told me that Porsche Tech Support has heard from several others who complained about same thing, but they are saying it is a characteristic of the vehicle and drivetrain. In other words, they tried to convince me that it is part of the car. I told them that they 2018 loaner did not have the noise, so they researched, and responded that the fuel and injector system on 2018's is same as 2017's and part numbers for the fuel system are the same. I told them that they replace the system and components which make the noise, but Porsche copped out and said it is a characteristic of the car... I am really pissed off about this. A 103k car should not have these unwanted and unpleasant noises... They might be subtle and unobtrusive to some folks, but it bothers the crap out of me. I am going to live with this, and I intend to escalate this with Porsche... In the meantime, I suggest that any prospective buyer of a Panamera pay attention to these issues...
I do have a huge gripe about my car.. It is best described as a very subtle whirring or diesel-like sound at about 1800-2800 rpms... It comes from behind the firewall and instrument cluster on driver's side.. Its a soft clicking-ticking-whirring sound. The dealer's service advisor thought it was an issue too.. They tried to diagnose, after telling me that a couple of others have complained about same issue. They kept my car for five days and did much investigating with Porsche Tech dept, only to come up with the response that the sound is related to the fuel delivery and fuel injection system-- and there is nothing they can do. They told me that Porsche Tech Support has heard from several others who complained about same thing, but they are saying it is a characteristic of the vehicle and drivetrain. In other words, they tried to convince me that it is part of the car. I told them that they 2018 loaner did not have the noise, so they researched, and responded that the fuel and injector system on 2018's is same as 2017's and part numbers for the fuel system are the same. I told them that they replace the system and components which make the noise, but Porsche copped out and said it is a characteristic of the car... I am really pissed off about this. A 103k car should not have these unwanted and unpleasant noises... They might be subtle and unobtrusive to some folks, but it bothers the crap out of me. I am going to live with this, and I intend to escalate this with Porsche... In the meantime, I suggest that any prospective buyer of a Panamera pay attention to these issues...
02-20-2018, 10:14 PM
#37
Donfenn sorry to hear about your issue. I bought my new 4S in the UK in July 2017 and am glad to say I don’t have or at least can’t hear the problem you mention.
delighted with my car. The only problem I am finding is that it is too wide for most parking spaces and multi story car car parks in the UK. So I have to be choosy where I take it.
Fortunately I also have an Audi 4S which is superb and as quick and refined a drive as the P which gets left at home most of the time.
delighted with my car. The only problem I am finding is that it is too wide for most parking spaces and multi story car car parks in the UK. So I have to be choosy where I take it.
Fortunately I also have an Audi 4S which is superb and as quick and refined a drive as the P which gets left at home most of the time.
02-21-2018, 01:07 AM
#38
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02-21-2018, 03:00 AM
#39
I have had my 2017 Panamera for four months... It is a base car, but I have the air suspension and full group of options, including 21" wheels and other options. The car is beautiful, and like the way it drives compared to the earlier Panamera versions (i have had 2011, 2013 & 2015 Panameras). I do find that the new electronics and PCM are improved in some ways, but the radio/satellite/bluetooth has been a bit wonky on mine & I just had a 2018 loaner with similar wonkiness---(however the 2018 updated version does have some improved red graphics on display). The PCM seems to have some inbred confusion between the Apple Car Play, Porsche Connect and Blue tooth, which makes it less than perfect. The transmission shift pattern and engine response is much improved over the old base Panamera. The light clunks and noises from the PDK at low speed are typical of every Porsche PDK tranny I have driven so I am used to them... In the appearance, performance and features department, the new generation Panamera is a nice improvement, but there is still room for refinement.
I do have a huge gripe about my car.. It is best described as a very subtle whirring or diesel-like sound at about 1800-2800 rpms... It comes from behind the firewall and instrument cluster on driver's side.. Its a soft clicking-ticking-whirring sound. The dealer's service advisor thought it was an issue too.. They tried to diagnose, after telling me that a couple of others have complained about same issue. They kept my car for five days and did much investigating with Porsche Tech dept, only to come up with the response that the sound is related to the fuel delivery and fuel injection system-- and there is nothing they can do. They told me that Porsche Tech Support has heard from several others who complained about same thing, but they are saying it is a characteristic of the vehicle and drivetrain. In other words, they tried to convince me that it is part of the car. I told them that they 2018 loaner did not have the noise, so they researched, and responded that the fuel and injector system on 2018's is same as 2017's and part numbers for the fuel system are the same. I told them that they replace the system and components which make the noise, but Porsche copped out and said it is a characteristic of the car... I am really pissed off about this. A 103k car should not have these unwanted and unpleasant noises... They might be subtle and unobtrusive to some folks, but it bothers the crap out of me. I am going to live with this, and I intend to escalate this with Porsche... In the meantime, I suggest that any prospective buyer of a Panamera pay attention to these issues...
I do have a huge gripe about my car.. It is best described as a very subtle whirring or diesel-like sound at about 1800-2800 rpms... It comes from behind the firewall and instrument cluster on driver's side.. Its a soft clicking-ticking-whirring sound. The dealer's service advisor thought it was an issue too.. They tried to diagnose, after telling me that a couple of others have complained about same issue. They kept my car for five days and did much investigating with Porsche Tech dept, only to come up with the response that the sound is related to the fuel delivery and fuel injection system-- and there is nothing they can do. They told me that Porsche Tech Support has heard from several others who complained about same thing, but they are saying it is a characteristic of the vehicle and drivetrain. In other words, they tried to convince me that it is part of the car. I told them that they 2018 loaner did not have the noise, so they researched, and responded that the fuel and injector system on 2018's is same as 2017's and part numbers for the fuel system are the same. I told them that they replace the system and components which make the noise, but Porsche copped out and said it is a characteristic of the car... I am really pissed off about this. A 103k car should not have these unwanted and unpleasant noises... They might be subtle and unobtrusive to some folks, but it bothers the crap out of me. I am going to live with this, and I intend to escalate this with Porsche... In the meantime, I suggest that any prospective buyer of a Panamera pay attention to these issues...
The weird sound that I was referring to is around 0:04 and 0:09-0:10. Sorry for the bad quality of the video and might have to max your volume to hear it.
Last edited by crack3rd; 02-21-2018 at 03:23 AM.
02-21-2018, 12:33 PM
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It sounds a bit different than mine, which is more of ticking or constant whirring sound related to RPMS.. However, it could be related to same fuel delivery components. I also learned that there is an exhaust valve which opens during this same rpm range to feed turbo, so it could be related to that.. I suggest that you push your dealer and Porsche tech on this.. They will not work on issues if there is not enough critical mass in the complaint department.
02-21-2018, 03:40 PM
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