Ted in Rochester

Other than pure speculation, anyone have any insight as to what the base price might be for the Mission E? Any credible comments from Porsche management?

C.J. Ichiban

200ish

Drifting

I thought it was supposed to be priced just above the panamera? 150K?

Easier to compete with Tesla at 150K vs 200K.

C.J. Ichiban

Build a panamera turbo online...it's 185k

JCBH

Yep - too many must-have options. But a great car.

aualexa2

Obviously we'll have to wait and see what the price will be, but this thread made me think of this article that I read recently.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...panamera-sedan

mrgreenjeans

Question directed to CJ Wilson.....

Will the mission E still be called the Pajun? or * Panamera Junior

And will we see a significant change from the Tesla in terms of ability to perform 'on track' without serious hindrances such as power depletion ? Weight and braking issues ?

My thoughts are that Porsche will not allow a car in this segment to have such serious drawbacks in it's track performance capabilities, such as Tesla currently does......

( and wishing you all a very Happy Easter with family and friends.)

ocgarza

What track deficiencies does the Tesla have? Extensive battery drain at high speeds?

DC911S

The Tesla overheats on the track. The cooling system can't keep up with the heat generated by the batteries. It's also very heavy and the brakes have issues. In stock form it can't even do a whole hot lap on the Ring.

gnochi

Just to throw some numbers in there:

• The Tesla Model S pack resistance is around 0.064Ohms
• An 8 minute Nurburgring loop with a 2.5 ton vehicle uses about 400kW / 540HP RMS
• At around 400V RMS pack voltage - which is higher than the actual value - this corresponds to roughly 1000A RMS - which is lower than the actual value

At these values, the pack generates about 64kW of waste heat from resistance alone, and the cooling system can be pushed to handle about 8kW. Starting cold at 15degC, with net 56kW heat generation, and a pack heat capacity on the order of 400kJ/degC, your cells are sitting at around 80degC - which is well beyond the typical thermal runaway onset temperature of about 60degC.

Oh, and you've also used about 62kWh out of your 90kWh pack. Which is now on fire. Wait for it... wait for it... and now your car is totaled.

Every Porsche has a Nürburgring target, public or not. I would expect their engineering teams to do what they can to lower pack resistance (more cells in parallel, higher-power cells at some expense of energy and therefore range), lower RMS power requirements (better aero, lower weight), and do what they can to improve cooling. Track performance is the worst case scenario for EVs (because there's a limit to how much you can improve on the above with current or near-future technology), and I would be very surprised to see the Mission E do significantly better than the 993 GT2 at 7:46.

Side note: the "Ludicrous Mode" in the Model S actually *limits* peak power. This lowers the RMS power by a pretty substantial amount, RMS current by about the same amount, heat generation by the square of that amount, and means you can actually finish a lap in an almost somewhat respectable time.

DC911S

I think limp mode kicks in and you crawl back to the pits, instead of a actual fire. People have modded the Model S to do Pikes peak, but they took lots of weight out and upped the cooling capacity...and it no longer street legal. I think at some point they will immerse the batteries in a non-conductive fluid to aid in the cooling, and not use some sort of jacket covering like they use now. But not PCB's, that was and is nasty stuff.

gnochi

Good point; they implemented the limp-home mode for this and a few other edge cases specifically to avoid worse possibilities. My post was meant as a bit of detail onto why you can't do an 8 minute lap in the Model S; re-reading it after some sleep, I didn't make that clear.

I was pretty impressed by that Pike's Peak run! It's another set of conditions to optimize around, and it's another example showing that you can do some interesting things with the EV powertrain (and Tesla has by far the best currently available mass-market) but it will impact the rest of the vehicle.

Immersion cooling is interesting. Lots of trade offs, and it's not optimal for every situation, but the added thermal mass can be quite handy.

DC911S

I've seem immersion cooling in old FAA radars that make gigawatts of power for their kylstrons or TWT's..its like a giant lava lamp. once you pack so much energy into a square cm jacket cooling does not work very well and can't keep up.

RealityGT

CJ, I recently read online that Porsche will be dropping the price on the E, in order to compete with the model 3 and a potential rename would be Pajun (Panny Junior).. Any credence to this information below?

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...panamera-sedan

Porsche CEO Oliver Blume told the Australian outlet Drive that the Mission E will “retain a four-door sedan layout” and—perhaps equally significant—be priced to compete in a “segment below the Panamera.”

That likely puts it somewhere in the $50,000 to $80,000 range; the U.S. versions of the Panamera now start at roughly $85,000 for a "base" rear-wheel-drive model with a 2.9-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 engine.

That pricing probably puts the upcoming Porsche Mission E up against the top end of the upcoming Tesla Model 3 lineup—and against the Lucid Air, should that car make it into production, at a starting price of $60,000.

lowpue

As someone who is on the waitlist, at that price I wouldn't sell any of my other cars. But at the same time would not believe that kind of pricing.