Probable Base Price?????
04-26-2017, 12:47 PM
#16
I believe I read someplace that the Mission E will have a carbon fiber tub. If so, I suspect this would be a first for a 4 door car and certainly sounds expensive. It makes sense that Porsche would use a CF tub since this would provide the rigidity for suicide rear doors and would also keep weight down.
Like the prior poster, I am on my local dealers list and will be astonished if the ME is priced under $100K.
Like the prior poster, I am on my local dealers list and will be astonished if the ME is priced under $100K.
04-29-2017, 06:55 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
CJ, I recently read online that Porsche will be dropping the price on the E, in order to compete with the model 3 and a potential rename would be Pajun (Panny Junior).. Any credence to this information below?
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...panamera-sedan
Porsche CEO Oliver Blume told the Australian outlet Drive that the Mission E will “retain a four-door sedan layout” and—perhaps equally significant—be priced to compete in a “segment below the Panamera.”
That likely puts it somewhere in the $50,000 to $80,000 range; the U.S. versions of the Panamera now start at roughly $85,000 for a "base" rear-wheel-drive model with a 2.9-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 engine.
That pricing probably puts the upcoming Porsche Mission E up against the top end of the upcoming Tesla Model 3 lineup—and against the Lucid Air, should that car make it into production, at a starting price of $60,000.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...panamera-sedan
Porsche CEO Oliver Blume told the Australian outlet Drive that the Mission E will “retain a four-door sedan layout” and—perhaps equally significant—be priced to compete in a “segment below the Panamera.”
That likely puts it somewhere in the $50,000 to $80,000 range; the U.S. versions of the Panamera now start at roughly $85,000 for a "base" rear-wheel-drive model with a 2.9-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 engine.
That pricing probably puts the upcoming Porsche Mission E up against the top end of the upcoming Tesla Model 3 lineup—and against the Lucid Air, should that car make it into production, at a starting price of $60,000.
04-29-2017, 09:13 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
I don't believe this at all. The mission E will compete against the Tesla Model S, (not the Tesla model 3). The best Model S version, the P100D, sells for $145,000, but the Mission E will be a better car, and is a Porsche, so $160,000-180,000 make more sense as a price for the Mission E.
05-01-2017, 02:25 PM
#20
Drifting
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I don't believe this at all. The mission E will compete against the Tesla Model S, (not the Tesla model 3). The best Model S version, the P100D, sells for $145,000, but the Mission E will be a better car, and is a Porsche, so $160,000-180,000 make more sense as a price for the Mission E.
Source of your pricing?
05-08-2017, 07:26 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Can't imagine it's under $175K out the door. Tesla will be launching the new Roadster at roughly the same time. Will be interesting to see how the market responds. The Porsche folks continually hammer Tesla for the inability of the Model S to be tracked although these are the same Porsche folks who are voting 65-35 that they don't intend to track the new GT3!
05-25-2017, 08:58 AM
#22
Drifting
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CJ, I recently read online that Porsche will be dropping the price on the E, in order to compete with the model 3 and a potential rename would be Pajun (Panny Junior).. Any credence to this information below?
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...panamera-sedan
Porsche CEO Oliver Blume told the Australian outlet Drive that the Mission E will “retain a four-door sedan layout” and—perhaps equally significant—be priced to compete in a “segment below the Panamera.”
That likely puts it somewhere in the $50,000 to $80,000 range; the U.S. versions of the Panamera now start at roughly $85,000 for a "base" rear-wheel-drive model with a 2.9-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 engine.
That pricing probably puts the upcoming Porsche Mission E up against the top end of the upcoming Tesla Model 3 lineup—and against the Lucid Air, should that car make it into production, at a starting price of $60,000.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...panamera-sedan
Porsche CEO Oliver Blume told the Australian outlet Drive that the Mission E will “retain a four-door sedan layout” and—perhaps equally significant—be priced to compete in a “segment below the Panamera.”
That likely puts it somewhere in the $50,000 to $80,000 range; the U.S. versions of the Panamera now start at roughly $85,000 for a "base" rear-wheel-drive model with a 2.9-liter twin-turbocharged V-6 engine.
That pricing probably puts the upcoming Porsche Mission E up against the top end of the upcoming Tesla Model 3 lineup—and against the Lucid Air, should that car make it into production, at a starting price of $60,000.
07-14-2017, 09:07 AM
#24
Drifting
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Interested to read more as the magic 8 ball has somewhat validated the pricing discussed in the article posted above you.
07-15-2017, 04:34 PM
#25
I don't believe this at all. The mission E will compete against the Tesla Model S, (not the Tesla model 3). The best Model S version, the P100D, sells for $145,000, but the Mission E will be a better car, and is a Porsche, so $160,000-180,000 make more sense as a price for the Mission E.
07-16-2017, 09:58 AM
#26
Burning Brakes
I'm unclear why people keep insisting that the Porsche CEO is lying about their pricing plans. Also note that Blume specifically mentioned power in the 400-450 HP range, not the 600+ HP of the concept car. If they're cutting back price, it's entirely possible they'll cut back on things like carbon fiber to reduce weight.
In that power range, they're not trying to compete with the Tesla P100D with claimed 760 HP. Sure, the Mission E will almost certainly be track ready in a way no Model S is, but they know a lot of buyers, particularly American buyers, are going to look no further than the HP figure.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a wide range in Mission E trims, the way there is with everything else they make. If it parallels the Panamera line, we'll see everything from 300 to 600 HP, with prices scaled to match.
In that power range, they're not trying to compete with the Tesla P100D with claimed 760 HP. Sure, the Mission E will almost certainly be track ready in a way no Model S is, but they know a lot of buyers, particularly American buyers, are going to look no further than the HP figure.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a wide range in Mission E trims, the way there is with everything else they make. If it parallels the Panamera line, we'll see everything from 300 to 600 HP, with prices scaled to match.
07-17-2017, 04:48 PM
#27
My Nissan with a 24kWh battery (~ 60 Ahr) has an output impedance of about 62 mohms
(.062 ohms) at 33 C now at about 50K miles. When it was new it had about 56 mohms
at the same temp.
The Model S with a 85kWh battery (Panasonic) should have less than 20 mohms. The Model S with
a 100 kWh battery should have less than about 15 mohms.
Please re-check your source of info!
07-17-2017, 05:08 PM
#28
Instructor
Where did this number come from?
My Nissan with a 24kWh battery (~ 60 Ahr) has an output impedance of about 62 mohms
(.062 ohms) at 33 C now at about 50K miles. When it was new it had about 56 mohms
at the same temp.
The Model S with a 85kWh battery (Panasonic) should have less than 20 mohms. The Model S with
a 100 kWh battery should have less than about 15 mohms.
Please re-check your source of info!
My Nissan with a 24kWh battery (~ 60 Ahr) has an output impedance of about 62 mohms
(.062 ohms) at 33 C now at about 50K miles. When it was new it had about 56 mohms
at the same temp.
The Model S with a 85kWh battery (Panasonic) should have less than 20 mohms. The Model S with
a 100 kWh battery should have less than about 15 mohms.
Please re-check your source of info!
Cell impedence for the 18650s Tesla uses is about 45 mOhm. Each of the wirebonds has an impedence of about 7 mOhm, so 14 mOhm per cell, and this results in a net 59 mOhm per cell.
The P95D pack is 96S74P, so (96/74)*(59 mOhm) = 63.5 mOhm. Altogether the bolted joints and busbars and such come to another 0.5 mOhms, for a net 64 mOhms per pack.
The Nissan Leaf uses pouch cells that are laserwelded together; these particular pouches are optimized for impedence at the expense of energy density at around 1.2mOhm and 30Ah per cell. This makes cooling significantly easier (and therefore the pack much cheaper), and there are 48x 2S2P modules. The net resistance is (48*2/2)*(1.2mOhm) = 57.6mOhm. (Busbar resistance and the welds combined are again around 0.5mOhm/pack.)
Basically, the vehicles are optimized for very different purposes and the packs and cell choices reflect that. As such, the packs aren't directly comparable in really any way at all.
07-17-2017, 06:03 PM
#29
The source is me physically disassembling a bunch of packs from a bunch of OEMs and measuring all that stuff
Cell impedence for the 18650s Tesla uses is about 45 mOhm. Each of the wirebonds has an impedence of about 7 mOhm, so 14 mOhm per cell, and this results in a net 59 mOhm per cell.
The P95D pack is 96S74P, so (96/74)*(59 mOhm) = 63.5 mOhm. Altogether the bolted joints and busbars and such come to another 0.5 mOhms, for a net 64 mOhms per pack.
The Nissan Leaf uses pouch cells that are laserwelded together; these particular pouches are optimized for impedence at the expense of energy density at around 1.2mOhm and 30Ah per cell. This makes cooling significantly easier (and therefore the pack much cheaper), and there are 48x 2S2P modules. The net resistance is (48*2/2)*(1.2mOhm) = 57.6mOhm. (Busbar resistance and the welds combined are again around 0.5mOhm/pack.)
Basically, the vehicles are optimized for very different purposes and the packs and cell choices reflect that. As such, the packs aren't directly comparable in really any way at all.
Cell impedence for the 18650s Tesla uses is about 45 mOhm. Each of the wirebonds has an impedence of about 7 mOhm, so 14 mOhm per cell, and this results in a net 59 mOhm per cell.
The P95D pack is 96S74P, so (96/74)*(59 mOhm) = 63.5 mOhm. Altogether the bolted joints and busbars and such come to another 0.5 mOhms, for a net 64 mOhms per pack.
The Nissan Leaf uses pouch cells that are laserwelded together; these particular pouches are optimized for impedence at the expense of energy density at around 1.2mOhm and 30Ah per cell. This makes cooling significantly easier (and therefore the pack much cheaper), and there are 48x 2S2P modules. The net resistance is (48*2/2)*(1.2mOhm) = 57.6mOhm. (Busbar resistance and the welds combined are again around 0.5mOhm/pack.)
Basically, the vehicles are optimized for very different purposes and the packs and cell choices reflect that. As such, the packs aren't directly comparable in really any way at all.
Impedance = delta V / delta I
Furthermore, if the Telsa battery had that high of an impedance, voltage drop to the motor
would be about 60 volts under full acceleration (1000 amps), i.e. a significant power loss.
In any case, find the actual report (link) where it's reported.
07-17-2017, 06:12 PM
#30
Instructor
The actual impedance needs to be measured dynamically in the vehicle under full load conditions, remember;
Impedance = delta V / delta I
Furthermore, if the Telsa battery had that high of an impedance, voltage drop to the motor
would be about 60 volts under full acceleration (1000 amps), i.e. a significant power loss.
In any case, find the actual report (link) where it's reported.
Impedance = delta V / delta I
Furthermore, if the Telsa battery had that high of an impedance, voltage drop to the motor
would be about 60 volts under full acceleration (1000 amps), i.e. a significant power loss.
In any case, find the actual report (link) where it's reported.
We tested various discharge rates and states of charge. The cells individually bottom out at about 42mOhm for really low discharge rate, 45mOhm+/-1mOhm for typical discharge rates and 20%-90% SOC, and go as high as 70mOhm at low states of charge.
There are cells with lower impedence, but they universally have lower energy as well, because there's a tradeoff between metal volume (low resistance, no energy) and jelly roll volume (high resistance, high energy).
