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Okay so I spoke with Essex this morning and they have been very responsive to my concerns. I understand from the call that they have made a running change to the line set since I purchased my set last fall. In particular they have made the rear lines longer to address any potential rubbing issue. I understand that Jeff Ritter is going to post something in this thread explaining all of that, but Essex is sending me a new set of the longer rear lines and hopefully that will address the rubbing while eliminating the need for the fabricated bracket that the race shop installed as a temporary fix. I may or may not have an opportunity to get the new lines installed before VIR next week, but will post again as soon as they are installed. In any case, those who purchased the line set after the running change may not have an issue with rubbing. I will let Jeff speak to the specifics of the change and the date that the change was implemented.
Okay so I spoke with Essex this morning and they have been very responsive to my concerns. I understand from the call that they have made a running change to the line set since I purchased my set last fall. In particular they have made the rear lines longer to address any potential rubbing issue. I understand that Jeff Ritter is going to post something in this thread explaining all of that, but Essex is sending me a new set of the longer rear lines and hopefully that will address the rubbing while eliminating the need for the fabricated bracket that the race shop installed as a temporary fix. I may or may not have an opportunity to get the new lines installed before VIR next week, but will post again as soon as they are installed. In any case, those who purchased the line set after the running change may not have an issue with rubbing. I will let Jeff speak to the specifics of the change and the date that the change was implemented.
If you could measure them when you get them that would be great.
My rears, as measured from center of the caliper tip to the end of the body connector is 15".
This is the first time we've heard of anyone's tire making contact with a line, and Shandingo's mechanic brought it to our attention Tuesday afternoon. We've been working on resolving it with them since that time. The problem is that the packaging is extremely tight on the rear of the GT4. The GT3 and GT3RS have a different rear line setup that provides more space for the rear lines. As such, we have never heard of this issue with those cars, nor would we expect it.
First and foremost, when your mechanic installs the lines, it is their responsibility to make sure that they do not interfere with the wheel, suspension, etc. Our customers typically run a wide range of tires, wheels, suspensions, ride heights, alignments, caliper studs vs. stock bolts, etc. When you factor in the wide range of stresses seen under track/racing conditions (which is what these lines were designed for), it's nearly impossible to plan for every eventuality. In most cases we conduct our R&D on a completely stock car. While we try to account for as many variables and changes as possible, we can't account for every condition or modification. In other words, what we see on one car doesn't necessarily hold precisely true for what will be seen on another car. The dilemma when creating lines is that you want just enough line for everything connect without tension through the full range of suspension travel. Too short of a line creates stress on the fittings, while unnecessarily long lines typically have more potential to come into contact with other components. Fortunately, Spiegler lines offer the most adjustability on the market, since every fitting on every line can be rotated to release tension.
Below are a couple of pics of Shandingo's lines installed on his car. The first pic shows the line routing with the wheel on, and the second shows the two small witness marks on the plastic line sheath near the middle of the line from the tire making contact.
Spiegler makes revisions and/or improvements on a continual basis based on feedback from both Essex and our customers. The latest revision of the six line kit that started shipping in January 2017 has slightly longer front and rear lines than the original sets shipped in 2016. The 2016 rear lines measured 355mm (13.97 inches) tip to tip, and the 2017 version were 380mm (14.96 inches) long. That was done to better accommodate customers using caliper studs in place of the stock bolts. We believe that the one inch of added rear length will also slightly improve tire clearance on the GT4. Shandingo has one of the older line sets from 2016 that did not have the longer rear lines.
So What Do I Do?
If you purchased your line kit after January 1st 2017, you have the latest revision of the product, and we don't expect you will see any issues if the lines were installed properly. As with any brake component, you should continue to visually inspect them for wear and tear on a regular basis. Brake lines are wear items, just like pads and discs.
If you purchased a six line Spiegler set for your GT4 prior to January 1st, 2017, we are willing to send you a set of the latest, slightly longer rear lines at no charge. You can think of it as a firmware upgrade. Please just call let us know when and from whom you purchased the lines, and we'll get the latest version out to you. We have a list of customers who bought their lines directly from Essex, and we'll be reaching out to those customers. We can be reached at 704-824-6030 from M-F, 8am-5pm. When you get your new lines, the above notes continue to apply: You should continue to visually inspect them for wear and tear on a regular basis.
Again, if your lines are installed on a GT3, none of the above applies to you. Thank you very much for your continued support.
__________________
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
My records indicate that we sold 12 sets of the 6 line Spiegler Lines last year. If you need me to get involved with a set of new lines let me know. I believe most of the lines we sold were going into GT3s.
My records indicate that we sold 12 sets of the 6 line Spiegler Lines last year. If you need me to get involved with a set of new lines let me know. I believe most of the lines we sold were going into GT3s.
Thanks Clark. I did buy my lines from you but Essex is already sending the new lines to me.
I checked my lines on the lift this evening and confirmed my rear lines are rubbing the rim as well. I'll be installing the new longer lines this weekend.
Update: I had the longer lines installed last week right before the Zone 2 DE at VIR. I have not removed the wheels since the event to check for any signs of rubbing, but I did not hear any noise after the lines were installed and have since driven the car several hundred miles, including 3 days at VIR. The race shop that installed the lines also checked for rubbing during the install (with the car on an alignment rack and a mechanic hanging from the bottom of the car to compress the suspension) and they did not see any. They said the extra length of the lines seemed to make the lines bend in a way that allows them to clear the wheels. I will update again after I have had a chance to pull the wheels and do another visual inspection subsequent to the driving I have done since he install, but all seems well for now.
Separately, I should add that Essex has really done a great job of straightening this issue out. I really appreciate their responsiveness and their sense of obligation to their customers. When I contacted them to report my issue and explained that I had a DE coming up, they worked very quickly to address the issue and get me a longer set of lines in time to have them installed before the event. That really saved my weekend, and I ended up having a great time.
Update: I had the longer lines installed last week right before the Zone 2 DE at VIR. I have not removed the wheels since the event to check for any signs of rubbing, but I did not hear any noise after the lines were installed and have since driven the car several hundred miles, including 3 days at VIR. The race shop that installed the lines also checked for rubbing during the install (with the car on an alignment rack and a mechanic hanging from the bottom of the car to compress the suspension) and they did not see any. They said the extra length of the lines seemed to make the lines bend in a way that allows them to clear the wheels. I will update again after I have had a chance to pull the wheels and do another visual inspection subsequent to the driving I have done since he install, but all seems well for now.
Separately, I should add that Essex has really done a great job of straightening this issue out. I really appreciate their responsiveness and their sense of obligation to their customers. When I contacted them to report my issue and explained that I had a DE coming up, they worked very quickly to address the issue and get me a longer set of lines in time to have them installed before the event. That really saved my weekend, and I ended up having a great time.
I'm glad we could help you out and get you squared away in time to enjoy your weekend. Thanks for your patience.
This past weekend I attended the Porsche Festival of Speed in Fontana, CA at the Auto Club Raceway. A few months ago I had stainless steel braided brake lines (unsure of brand but think they were Spiegler) installed along with new Brembo rotors. Just a couple of weeks ago, I had some suspension work done. Front camber is now -3 degrees, with -2.8 in back.
Between installation and the Festival, I did a single day DE at Streets of Willow Springs - a fairly slow and benign track. Starting this past Friday, I was running the "roval" (road course + 1/2 of NASCAR oval) at Fontana. Friday was uneventful - 3 1/2 hr sessions. On the NASCAR portion of the track, I enter turn 1 at approx. 150 mph, drop to a slowest speed around 130, accelerate out to about 140, and then brake as hard as possible for turn 3, a left hand 90 degree turn into the infield. I think that's about 30-35 mph in the turn.
So. Saturday am, first session, 3rd lap - 1st lap of the day at full speed after warm up. As I'm braking for turn 3, brakes immediately feel wrong. Fortunately there's nobody in my way, and I go sailing past the turn and down the back straight (which we don't use) of the oval. Back in the pits, the inside of my right rear wheel is soaking wet. After some inspection, it becomes clear that the tire has rubbed on the brake line. A leak turned into a geyser under full pressure braking.
Turn 3 is where cars exiting the pits blend into the track, and cars on track are braking heavily for the tight turn. There was nobody in front of me, but if there had been -- and cars are sometimes 3 abreast at that point - there could have been a collision with a closing speed in the vicinity of 100 mph. I don't even want to think about that! I have a roll bar, 6 pt Schroth harness, HANS device, and LWB seats, but I sure don't want to put them to this kind of a test.
The race shop that installed the brakes and lines in December happened to be there. They towed my car to their shop, worked into the evening, fixed it, and sent me back to the track for Sunday. They ended up using zip ties as a keeper to prevent the line from getting close to the tire. I'm very curious about the retainer that's mentioned in an earlier post.)
Yesterday - I received a bill from the shop for over $1000. I've had a discussion with their business manager and he's going to speak to the owner. We'll see how this develops.
At this stage my point is this: If you're driving a GT3 on a high-banked turn at high speed, where the combination of g-forces, suspension compression, and rear wheel steering all come into play, be aware. Do the mods to my car add to the problem? Quite possibly.
It was my bad luck that this happened, but my very good luck there were no other cars in front of me when it did. It seems apparent from all the posts here that this is a known problem but I haven't found any others that actually had this happen.
This past weekend I attended the Porsche Festival of Speed in Fontana, CA at the Auto Club Raceway. A few months ago I had stainless steel braided brake lines (unsure of brand but think they were Spiegler) installed along with new Brembo rotors. Just a couple of weeks ago, I had some suspension work done. Front camber is now -3 degrees, with -2.8 in back.
Between installation and the Festival, I did a single day DE at Streets of Willow Springs - a fairly slow and benign track. Starting this past Friday, I was running the "roval" (road course + 1/2 of NASCAR oval) at Fontana. Friday was uneventful - 3 1/2 hr sessions. On the NASCAR portion of the track, I enter turn 1 at approx. 150 mph, drop to a slowest speed around 130, accelerate out to about 140, and then brake as hard as possible for turn 3, a left hand 90 degree turn into the infield. I think that's about 30-35 mph in the turn.
So. Saturday am, first session, 3rd lap - 1st lap of the day at full speed after warm up. As I'm braking for turn 3, brakes immediately feel wrong. Fortunately there's nobody in my way, and I go sailing past the turn and down the back straight (which we don't use) of the oval. Back in the pits, the inside of my right rear wheel is soaking wet. After some inspection, it becomes clear that the tire has rubbed on the brake line. A leak turned into a geyser under full pressure braking.
Turn 3 is where cars exiting the pits blend into the track, and cars on track are braking heavily for the tight turn. There was nobody in front of me, but if there had been -- and cars are sometimes 3 abreast at that point - there could have been a collision with a closing speed in the vicinity of 100 mph. I don't even want to think about that! I have a roll bar, 6 pt Schroth harness, HANS device, and LWB seats, but I sure don't want to put them to this kind of a test.
The race shop that installed the brakes and lines in December happened to be there. They towed my car to their shop, worked into the evening, fixed it, and sent me back to the track for Sunday. They ended up using zip ties as a keeper to prevent the line from getting close to the tire. I'm very curious about the retainer that's mentioned in an earlier post.)
Yesterday - I received a bill from the shop for over $1000. I've had a discussion with their business manager and he's going to speak to the owner. We'll see how this develops.
At this stage my point is this: If you're driving a GT3 on a high-banked turn at high speed, where the combination of g-forces, suspension compression, and rear wheel steering all come into play, be aware. Do the mods to my car add to the problem? Quite possibly.
It was my bad luck that this happened, but my very good luck there were no other cars in front of me when it did. It seems apparent from all the posts here that this is a known problem but I haven't found any others that actually had this happen.
Folks - be careful out there!
DMoore
'15 GT3
You really should verify what lines you bought? Didn't it state on your bill?
Interesting to hear that the installer didn't verify positioning of the lines and stand behind their install.
This past weekend I attended the Porsche Festival of Speed in Fontana, CA at the Auto Club Raceway. A few months ago I had stainless steel braided brake lines (unsure of brand but think they were Spiegler) installed along with new Brembo rotors. Just a couple of weeks ago, I had some suspension work done. Front camber is now -3 degrees, with -2.8 in back.
Between installation and the Festival, I did a single day DE at Streets of Willow Springs - a fairly slow and benign track. Starting this past Friday, I was running the "roval" (road course + 1/2 of NASCAR oval) at Fontana. Friday was uneventful - 3 1/2 hr sessions. On the NASCAR portion of the track, I enter turn 1 at approx. 150 mph, drop to a slowest speed around 130, accelerate out to about 140, and then brake as hard as possible for turn 3, a left hand 90 degree turn into the infield. I think that's about 30-35 mph in the turn.
So. Saturday am, first session, 3rd lap - 1st lap of the day at full speed after warm up. As I'm braking for turn 3, brakes immediately feel wrong. Fortunately there's nobody in my way, and I go sailing past the turn and down the back straight (which we don't use) of the oval. Back in the pits, the inside of my right rear wheel is soaking wet. After some inspection, it becomes clear that the tire has rubbed on the brake line. A leak turned into a geyser under full pressure braking.
Turn 3 is where cars exiting the pits blend into the track, and cars on track are braking heavily for the tight turn. There was nobody in front of me, but if there had been -- and cars are sometimes 3 abreast at that point - there could have been a collision with a closing speed in the vicinity of 100 mph. I don't even want to think about that! I have a roll bar, 6 pt Schroth harness, HANS device, and LWB seats, but I sure don't want to put them to this kind of a test.
The race shop that installed the brakes and lines in December happened to be there. They towed my car to their shop, worked into the evening, fixed it, and sent me back to the track for Sunday. They ended up using zip ties as a keeper to prevent the line from getting close to the tire. I'm very curious about the retainer that's mentioned in an earlier post.)
Yesterday - I received a bill from the shop for over $1000. I've had a discussion with their business manager and he's going to speak to the owner. We'll see how this develops.
At this stage my point is this: If you're driving a GT3 on a high-banked turn at high speed, where the combination of g-forces, suspension compression, and rear wheel steering all come into play, be aware. Do the mods to my car add to the problem? Quite possibly.
It was my bad luck that this happened, but my very good luck there were no other cars in front of me when it did. It seems apparent from all the posts here that this is a known problem but I haven't found any others that actually had this happen.
Folks - be careful out there!
DMoore
'15 GT3
Wow, crazy story. This is why if something's not broke, don't fix it... these small parts houses mean well, but they clearly don't have the same resources that Porsche has as far as proving out the reliability of a design or part.
In this case, we're talking about what should be an obvious 1st-level fit check by a paranoid engineer at the prototype phase: does the brake line have any possible chance of rubbing on something that could cause it to fail? If yes, fix it by design.
03-09-2017, 10:05 AM
